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Postby Crimedogg32 » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:20 pm

It really makes no sense to have 2 of H2H and 1 of roto. Just see which ever one has the most votes and force everyone to use that so you can split up the teams randmonly and nobody can be screwed because all the good people choose roto or h2h.
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Postby samo » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:02 pm

I'd like to hear from guys like Rizzo, Thrill, Turmoil, so0p, AmAr3, etc. about this issue (all H2H or 2H2H/1Roto) before we make a decision. I doubt there is a "perfect" solution. Imagine how many people we'd probably lose if we say "OK, 100% Roto." Likewise, I suspect quite a few people would drop out if we say this is gonna be 100% H2H (I don't want to be a b**ch but I'd question my own participation since I, like several others, have issues with what I perceive to be the luck factor often associated with H2H playoffs).

Before we all get in a tizzy about it, lets hold off a bit and see what some of the above-mentioned guys have to say. Being new to the Cafe, I'm obviously not in a position to just dictate how things are gonna be. If you go back to the Classifieds thread you'll see we spent a week and 100 or so posts going back on forth on how to set things up and for the most part followed the suggestions of guys like Rizzo and AmAr3. We definitely saw this H2H vs. Roto thing coming and tried to find a middle ground that would be as fair as possible (whether we succeeded or not is open to debate)

It occurs to me that one of jaytizy's concerns might possibly be addressed by changing the set-up of the Champions League from rotating H2H/Roto every year to having a coin-flip each year (by Rizzo or Thrill or someone) so each season is randomized. Could be 3 straight H2H, then 2 Roto, etc, etc, total luck of the draw.

We'll take as much input as possible on this issue and hope to reach a consensus. If no consensus, the Exec Committee will just have to make a decision, majority rules, and hope we don't ruffle too many feathers.

And here I thought making 36 smart fantasy guys happy would be a piece of cake! lol
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Postby Knicks4ever » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:14 pm

I agree with JayTizy, and Crimedogg. I think that having all the leauges be H2H or Roto would be much better. I think that switching back and forth will lead to more problems than just deciding on one and sticking with that, just my .02
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Postby Dynasty Deacon » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:25 pm

possibilities

1. 1 Roto and 2 H2H in year 1, 1 Roto and H2H in botttom tier with the top tier switching between H2H and Roto each year after year 1,

2. All H2H

3. All Roto, which I know won't fly.

4. My personal favorite, having 1 Roto in the lower leagues each year and the top being H2H every year and another lower level being H2H. The one Roto will be like a gift for those who prefer Roto. Sorry Roto guys, but there are a lot more people who like H2H.
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Postby Rizzo » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:30 pm

Here are some of my thoughts:

- Poll the 36 participants for H2H or ROTO. Whichever gets the most votes will have 2 leagues in year 1. Year 2, there should be one H2H league and one ROTO league for the minors, then the higher league should rotate H2H and ROTO each year (or randomize it like said before, that would add a little spice).

- I would be against having this be entirely H2H or entirely ROTO because we want to be able to showcase our managerial skills, and if we are truly looking for the best, you should be able to play either H2H or ROTO, not just one.

- For those who want to make it all H2H or all ROTO, we could do that, but then change it every year (like said before, every-other year H2H or randomize it). This way, everyone is on the same playing field in the OCTAGON and we all have to play the same settings.

Like you said samo, keeping 36 fantasy managers happy will not be easy, but I'm sure once we get these details banged out, this league will take off.

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We definately could use sum-forums here.
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Postby samo » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:50 pm

Don't have alot of time right now but there's an Option #5 to add to DD's list, an option I doubt will fly but here it is:

Option 5: Run all the leagues or just Champion League as H2H every year but only use the H2H playoffs as an exhibition, ie. use the regular H2H season standings as final standings to determine bragging rights, league movement, etc.

Though I prefer Roto b/c it forces managers to pay attention to all categories and is therefore (arguably) more challenging, I suspect that guys like me who despise the randomness of the final 2 weeks of the NBA season and don't consider H2H playoffs to be a fair indicator of fantasy skill would be willing to consider going pure H2H if the fantasy playoffs could be taken out of the equation.

I'd like to think part of the beauty of this league will be the mad props, fantasy cred, and overall bling-bling the winner of the Champions League will get for even winning one year, H2H or Roto. Unfortunately, if this thing goes all H2H or the Champ League goes only H2H every year with winner decided by fantasy playoffs, Roto guys like me are likely to lose quite a bit of interest (and may not be quite as willing to give up the mad props or may lose interest entirely).

Sorry to go on so long but this seems like a crucial issue for the future of these leagues and I want to be as fair as possible to all involved. Can we please get some more input from Cafe vets, mods, and even the new guys like myself?

If the consensus is to go 100% H2H with fantasy playoffs to determine final standings, then so be it.

btw, just saw Rizzo's last post and agree 100%.
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Postby AmAr3 i$ dA fU7Ur3 » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:37 pm

I think we should run all leagues as H2H this year because it is the more commonly used format, especially with novices.

Then next year, those who are in the champion league can vote on H2H or roto. After that, the champion league will alternate between H2H and roto.

One of the two minor leagues should be H2H and one should be roto. Who gets put in which league should be completely randomized.

I think this is the simplest, most plausible, and least controversial solution.
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Postby bokzg » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:03 pm

I actually think the idea of having the H2H leagues treating the playoff weeks as "exhibition" would be a good idea. I've actually heard of a few H2H leagues doing this already, and was considering doing so for my own league with my friends this coming year. This would take away the primary factor that anti-H2H people dislike about the format, and make it a lot easier for everyone to be on the same page.

That said, I would also hope that whether we decide to treat the fantasy playoffs as exhibition or not, that we'll involve both formats in our league. As stated before, it'd be better for both determining who are truly the best of the best and eliminating any format bias. This would also add a whole other level of credibility to those who make it into the top tier, even though some people may not play Roto until their third season.

I think the best option would be the Season 1: 1 Roto and 2 H2H; Season 2: 1 Roto, 1 H2H, 1 Final (Roto or H2H, random or alternating) with the H2H leagues using the regular season standings to determine their top 4 or 6.
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Postby bokzg » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:09 pm

AmAr3 i$ dA fU7Ur3 wrote:I think we should run all leagues as H2H this year because it is the more commonly used format, especially with novices.


My only disagreement with this is that you're suggesting that we make the league more "novice-friendly". My understanding is that the purpose of the league iss to determine the cream of the crop of the forum. I realize that the format is intended to make it easy for new or unknown people to come in and "dethrone" each year's top tier players, but isn't the overall purpose is to find the best and allow them to prove their skill?

Making the league easier for novices seems to contradict that purpose, as this league really isn't supposed to be for them. It's supposed to be for the people who are good and want to prove it to the rest of the members, to separate and distinguish themselves from the novices.

Oh, and as stated in my other post, I would prefer that we don't use either format exclusively.
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Postby The Thrill » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:43 pm

Unfortunately, I haven't been keeping up on everything that's been discussed in the Classifieds forum, but perhaps there's yet another alternative.... :-?

It's not really a great alternative, :-/ but you could have both a H2H and a Roto league for the majors. The UC (Ultimate Champion) each season is determined by how the manager performed in both leagues. The decision to make is how to determine "overall performance" across the two leagues. A very simple approach would be to take each manager's average final ranking (after playoffs for H2H purposes). So, if I finish 4th in Roto and 6th in H2H my average score would be 5. The UC is the player with lowest average score. That player is also guaranteed a spot in next season major leagues. Or, the top 4 players (based on average) could be guaranteed spots, etc. Or, the top performer in H2H and the top performer in Roto are guaranteed to be in the majors the next season... (there are numerous ways to approach this).

Likewise, there numerous ways to determine UC. I used rankings as an example, but the more mathmatically gifted could come up with a ranking based on weighted average team roto value or some type of weighted average ranking based on Games Back in H2H, etc...

Anyway, just a thought. It wouldn't be the end of the world to go straight H2H or straight Roto, but doing so would minimize the true definition of Ultimate Champion IMO.

In regard to drafting players, a manager would select an initial team. This "initial team" would be your starting roster for both H2H and Roto. Doing so requires a manager to be gifted in both gaming aspects (Roto and H2H) when drafting. As the season goes on, however, it would not be necessary (or even possible really) to retain the same players on your team in both formats.
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