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Postby so0perspam » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:52 pm

Alright guys check out the new trade evaluation system. Buser, samo, and myself conferenced today and settled on this 2-part system. Feel free to check it out and bring up any concerns you guys may have. ;-D
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2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Wed May 02, 2007 6:22 am

(1) There was some discussion of wanting to limit the movement of teams into the upper league in the H2H league to the teams that finished Top 6 in the playoffs. That probably makes sense. Any thoughts?

(2) Chrisy has made some persuasive arguments for doing away with weekly add-drop limits in H2H. Assuming we keep the full season limit at a reasonably low number (currently 40 moves), I think the idea has some merit.

(3) In light of the unintentional "re-randomization" in the Roto live draft this last season, I propose any future live drafts not be prerandomized at all, that we just let Yahoo tell us who drafts in what slot and we all find out 30 minutes before the draft starts. More fun that way anyway.

Despite a few kinks, I thought the concept of the 3 interrelated leagues worked fairly smoothly this last season. I'm sure there'll be more issues that arise this offseason, so lets work through them in this thread. ;-D
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Postby Dutch » Wed May 02, 2007 3:21 pm

My thought on the first two:
1) I believe that is a no brainer. Just seems no fair to me. You get into the consolation bracket of playoffs were you are more likely to face eiter weak competition or inactive competition. If you move past teams who have outperformed you the entire year that is not fair play to me.

2) I can definitely live with that in a league like this, since playoffs almost count the same. However keep in mind that if you do limit your pickups (and I know quite a few people do) streaming in playoffs is likely to occur to clinch the ticket that is avaible because of the exception. On the other hand that is the decision owners make themselves and I have no problem with it.
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Postby The Thrill » Wed May 02, 2007 5:22 pm

1) I think I understand the situation (though I truthfully haven't kept up-to-date on the H2H issues), but I would agree that only the teams that play in the championship bracket of the H2H leagues should be eligible. Competition in the consolation bracket typically is weaker.

2) I don't have much opinion on this. I've always preferred weekly lineup changes in H2H matchups to be honest. A seasonal add-drop limit is reasonable to me and I don't think a weekly add-drop is necessary.

3) I agree. Many drafts I've gone into it not knowing where my draft position will be. Just part of life in fantasy sports and you go with what you get. I don't think we need a pre-randomized order. We can let Yahoo do it, or if we decide upon a messageboard draft, then let a randomizer do it.
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Postby ed » Thu May 03, 2007 1:23 am

1) "only the teams that play in the championship bracket of the H2H leagues should be eligible. Competition in the consolation bracket typically is weaker." I agree

2) "A seasonal add-drop limit is reasonable to me and I don't think a weekly add-drop is necessary." I agree, but note the possibility of rotating players in and out at the end of the season

3) "I don't think we need a pre-randomized order. We can let Yahoo do it, or if we decide upon a messageboard draft, then let a randomizer do it" I agree
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Postby samo » Thu May 03, 2007 2:21 am

ed wrote:2) "A seasonal add-drop limit is reasonable to me and I don't think a weekly add-drop is necessary." I agree, but note the possibility of rotating players in and out at the end of the season

If Chrisy ever comes around to read this he can articulate it more fully, but the basic idea is that since NBA teams are rotating players in and out of their lineups the last few weeks of a season, fantasy managers should have a similar flexibility, within reasonable limits imposed by a full-season move limit. Lets hear some more discussion on this if anybody feels strongly one way or the other.

Any other topics or changes we need to discuss to smooth out any rough edges?
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Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Thu May 03, 2007 2:36 am

I'm drinking beer, but basically I think it's most competitive to have transaction limit at the start of the year and no weekly limits unless they are very high. Essentially the loss incurred due to not making moves on WW picks early in the season can be made up by saving extra moves for critical weeks, and visa versa.

A manager should not be punished for staying on top of player rotations and injury at the end of the year when his/her moves are in balance with the entire season as proposed.

Playing on equal ground with experienced managers negates the churn effect seen in, well face it, lower class leagues. That in addition to Yahoo's WW rules imposed now two seasons ago which make players who are added and dropped in too short a period free agents, rather than WW agents, negate negative churn effect (now known as NCE) as well. Additionally WW periods could be adjusted to one day, to accommodate a league of active and knowledgeable owners.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby mbuser » Sat May 05, 2007 9:30 pm

1) seems reasonable to me

2) i agree with doing away with weekly transaction limits, and i'm not a huge fan of season-long limits to be honest. if the sole reason for limits is to discourage churning, then i'd think a simple rule against churing itself would suffice. i can't think of many people who don't understand what the concept of churning is

3) sorry this is even an issue at all. moving forward, i have nothing against just letting yahoo do it's thing (although i can assure you that the re-randomization wouldn't happen again :-/ )
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Postby ed » Sat May 05, 2007 11:53 pm

about churning: I agree with Buser that a season long limit doesn't have anything to do with churning. a non-churning rule should be imposed.

However, churning must be defined specifically. if a weekly transaction limit is imposed, then basically, you are allowed to churn up to that transaction limit. but with transaction limits, then it really isn't churning per se.
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Postby samo » Sun May 06, 2007 1:30 am

ed wrote:about churning: I agree with Buser that a season long limit doesn't have anything to do with churning. a non-churning rule should be imposed.

However, churning must be defined specifically. if a weekly transaction limit is imposed, then basically, you are allowed to churn up to that transaction limit. but with transaction limits, then it really isn't churning per se.

If you go back and read Chrisy's post, the idea isn't to "prevent" churning per se, but to allow a manager to decide for himself how best to utilize his alotment of add-drops for a season. A manager could use more of his moves early hoping to get some "breakout" FA's, or he could pursue a strategy of saving up his add-drops just in case he needs to make a furious late-season push to get himself over the top. A "no-churning" rule would be nice, but could lend itself to all sorts of different interpretations. Example: I had an H2H league this last season where Manager 1 in the Playoff Finals accused Manager 2 of churning when Manager 2 dropped 4 "name" players due to injury (faked or real) and made 2 other moves b/c his targeted scrubs weren't performing well. 6 moves and he got called out for "churning." Was it churning? Some would say yes, others would say no. Either way, it would've exceeded our weekly H2H move limit of 5.

If we went without a full-season add-drop limit we'd leave it open to the "its not cheating if its not against the rules" argument, which is correct in a technical sense. I'm not sitting here saying we need to keep a full-season limit, I'm just suggesting that to do otherwise is potentially dangerous, and a general "no-churning" rule could potentially be ambiguous.

The argument Chrisy made for ditching the weekly limit but keeping the season limit is basically a laissez-faire type deal where each manager can do whatever they want w/in the season limit -- i.e. he could blow all his moves in Weeks 1 and 2 if he so chooses, or use none weeks 1-21 (thereby failing to get any breakout FA's) and churn to his hearts content during the fantasy playoffs (which we've essentially only made as valuable as any other week under our rules).

I only used 20 or so moves on the season for my Octagon H2H team that pulled off a 2nd place finish, but thats just my style: to hunt and peck for a few emerging FA's and let them play. My inclination is to propose we raise the season limit to 50 moves (roughly an average of 2 moves per week over 24 weeks) and go with no per-week limit and see how it works. Thoughts?

My thinking with raising it to 50 is for the benefit of a manager like bokzg who was decimated by injuries this year and kept struggling to find emerging players (who proceeded to also get injured). He was really giving it the old college try to get back into contention but ran up against the 40 move limit toward the end and at that point it was a lost cause for him.
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