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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:41 am

I apologize for the delay in my response to this thread.

1) The loophole we made in regard to the movement of teams into the upper league in the H2H league was indeed very small and nearly impossible to achieve, and looking back on it is wasn't really necessary in the first place and it is absolutely fair to close it and place the new top 6 H2H rule in effect.

2) It wasn't a big deal to me whether or not Buser's league pre-randomized the draft order last season (even though I didn't really see the need for it) ... but now that we have had conflict arise because of it, standardizing it and making a formal rule about letting Yahoo randomize it is a good idea. I'm always a supporter of simple, standard rules that make logical sense and avoid future conflict. ;D

3) Let me establish something first: samo, buser, and myself are facilitators, we are in no way dictators and we can ensure you that we always make decisions based on the league's best interest. With that said, we have already established in the past during the initial discussion of the rules that there is no need for a league vote. The reason is because the Executive Committee has already put a lot of thought into what would be best for this league and we have established a set of rules that reflects what we have agreed on. These aren't just your simple Yahoo league settings ... we had to sit down and think of all these complexities that make the Octagon the unique league it is. Keep in mind though that we have already made numerous changes to the rules based on well-presented, logical arguments put together by league members (which we highly encourage). Sorry to be frank, but if you cannot present a logical argument as to why we should change the rules, there is no reason to change it. A vote is simply a yes or no question really, it doesn't require any type of explanation from the member.

4) I've never personally had churning happen a league I've played in, so I am not as experienced in this area. But just to add my .02, wouldn't the setup of our league (top 6 H2H and standard roto) kind of downplay the whole churning effect? I am not saying it wouldn't have an impact, but I'm saying it shouldn't be that big a problem. Anyways, Chrisy's argument does make sense to me and wouldn't mind at all if we just removed the weekly transaction limit and implemented a season limit of around 50. As to individual "churning" complaints, I'm sure each commissioner can settle disputes in his own league ... if not, you can come to the EC for help in settling the matter. We've kept it somewhat civil here thus far :D and I'm sure that will continue to be the case. ;D
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:15 am

Rounders Block wrote:4) I've never personally had churning happen a league I've played in, so I am not as experienced in this area. But just to add my .02, wouldn't the setup of our league (top 6 H2H and standard roto) kind of downplay the whole churning effect? I am not saying it wouldn't have an impact, but I'm saying it shouldn't be that big a problem. Anyways, Chrisy's argument does make sense to me and wouldn't mind at all if we just removed the weekly transaction limit and implemented a season limit of around 50. As to individual "churning" complaints, I'm sure each commissioner can settle disputes in his own league ... if not, you can come to the EC for help in settling the matter. We've kept it somewhat civil here thus far :D and I'm sure that will continue to be the case. ;D

Agreed, I don't see churning as a big issue in this league, but we should probably have a clear-cut policy imho b/c it is an issue that gets people riled up. Based on all the comments in this thread, I'm going to suggest we bumb the season limit up to 50 and the weekly maximum up to, say, 10. Moltisanti suggested an unlimited weekly limit, and I see his argument, but I think 10 moves should be more than enough to give a manager maximum flexibility (particularly in the final "week" of the season which actually lasts 10 days) w/o letting him go crazy and use up 40 moves in the final week or something an opponent might find truly obnoxious. The key is that a 50 move limit only allows for an average of 2 moves per week over the full season. Unless there is objection to moving the weekly limit to 10, what this means is that no accusations of "churning" will be tolerated against any manager under the weekly limit, and no moves over the weekly limit will be allowed. I'll go ahead and update the rules and see if we have any objections and if they can give an Octagon-quality logical explanation for their objections, along with an alternate suggestion.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:20 am

samo wrote:Agreed, I don't see churning as a big issue in this league, but we should probably have a clear-cut policy imho b/c it is an issue that gets people riled up. Based on all the comments in this thread, I'm going to suggest we bumb the season limit up to 50 and the weekly maximum up to, say, 10. Moltisanti suggested an unlimited weekly limit, and I see his argument, but I think 10 moves should be more than enough to give a manager maximum flexibility (particularly in the final "week" of the season which actually lasts 10 days) w/o letting him go crazy and use up 40 moves in the final week or something an opponent might find truly obnoxious. The key is that a 50 move limit only allows for an average of 2 moves per week over the full season. Unless there is objection to moving the weekly limit to 10, what this means is that no accusations of "churning" will be tolerated against any manager under the weekly limit, and no moves over the weekly limit will be allowed. I'll go ahead and update the rules and see if we have any objections and if they can give an Octagon-quality logical explanation for their objections, along with an alternate suggestion.


Good idea ... 10 per week is a good middle number that will draw the line between allowing a manager flexibility with his roster and churning. And don't you think for a second I wouldn't notice that smart-ass comment you threw in at the end. :D Good work. ;D
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:45 pm

Rounders Block wrote:
samo wrote:Agreed, I don't see churning as a big issue in this league, but we should probably have a clear-cut policy imho b/c it is an issue that gets people riled up. Based on all the comments in this thread, I'm going to suggest we bumb the season limit up to 50 and the weekly maximum up to, say, 10. Moltisanti suggested an unlimited weekly limit, and I see his argument, but I think 10 moves should be more than enough to give a manager maximum flexibility (particularly in the final "week" of the season which actually lasts 10 days) w/o letting him go crazy and use up 40 moves in the final week or something an opponent might find truly obnoxious. The key is that a 50 move limit only allows for an average of 2 moves per week over the full season. Unless there is objection to moving the weekly limit to 10, what this means is that no accusations of "churning" will be tolerated against any manager under the weekly limit, and no moves over the weekly limit will be allowed. I'll go ahead and update the rules and see if we have any objections and if they can give an Octagon-quality logical explanation for their objections, along with an alternate suggestion.


Good idea ... 10 per week is a good middle number that will draw the line between allowing a manager flexibility with his roster and churning. And don't you think for a second I wouldn't notice that smart-ass comment you threw in at the end. :D Good work. ;D


If a player is injured or deactivated in the last month of the season a move made in response to this shouldn't count towoard a max total.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:14 am

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:If a player is injured or deactivated in the last month of the season a move made in response to this shouldn't count towoard a max total.


Are you talking about a weekly or season limit?
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:17 am

Rounders Block wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:If a player is injured or deactivated in the last month of the season a move made in response to this shouldn't count towoard a max total.


Are you talking about a weekly or season limit?


I'm proposing that if there is a weekly limit on transactions (only in the H2H league I assume) if a player is injured as Arenas was last year that the roster move not count toward this weekly limit.

If there were also a season limit (50), this move probably count toward it though.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:52 pm

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:I'm proposing that if there is a weekly limit on transactions (only in the H2H league I assume) if a player is injured as Arenas was last year that the roster move not count toward this weekly limit.

If there were also a season limit (50), this move probably count toward it though.


I know you've posted before that you've gathered up data on this, but on a given team I can only imagine that on average you would have a max of 3 or 4 players to drop that go down to injury per week. I think a weekly limit of 10 is more than generous to compensate for end of season injury and value changes. Like I said, 10 is a good middle number that will draw the line between allowing a manager flexibility with his roster and churning. And yes, the transaction limitations will only be enforced in the H2H league(s).
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:22 pm

Rounders Block wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:I'm proposing that if there is a weekly limit on transactions (only in the H2H league I assume) if a player is injured as Arenas was last year that the roster move not count toward this weekly limit.

If there were also a season limit (50), this move probably count toward it though.

I know you've posted before that you've gathered up data on this, but on a given team I can only imagine that on average you would have a max of 3 or 4 players to drop that go down to injury per week. I think a weekly limit of 10 is more than generous to compensate for end of season injury and value changes. Like I said, 10 is a good middle number that will draw the line between allowing a manager flexibility with his roster and churning. And yes, the transaction limitations will only be enforced in the H2H league(s).

Chrisy and I have discussed the advantages of laissez-faire unlimited weekly moves in H2H, backed up by a seasonal limit, and while I basically agree with him in theory, I'm pretty sure that if we allowed guys to use up their 35+ remaining moves in the final week of a season in a matchup with important ramifications, the league would end up being accused of allowing churning, regardless of our theoretical response that "each of those 35 moves represents a lost opportunity throughout the course of the season." Ten moves during a single matchup by an opponent feels like a lot; I've seen accusations of "churning" start to be tossed around when an opponent gets to six moves in a week, so a weekly limit of 10 is gonna feel high to many people, but keeping it as low as 10 at least gives most people a reasonable opportunity to deal with someone who is using up their moves in an important matchup, shall we say, creatively?

Creativity we like, flexibility we like, fantasy hoops is an art after all, not a science. Churning we don't like b/c it drives the numbers up artificially, like fishing in a pond using dynamite. Increasing the weekly limit from 3 to 10 is a major increase, but I'm reasonably convinced it'll improve the league by giving managers a free-er hand, within reasonabe limits. With a number as high as 10, I'm not seeing the need for a correlating rule that "drops for injuries don't count toward your 10," particularly b/c the so-called injuries at the end of seasons tend to be so questionable. Like Rounders said, 10 moves in a week should be more than enough, and is a big increase from the previous weekly limit of 3.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:47 am

samo wrote:
Rounders Block wrote:
Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:I'm proposing that if there is a weekly limit on transactions (only in the H2H league I assume) if a player is injured as Arenas was last year that the roster move not count toward this weekly limit.

If there were also a season limit (50), this move probably count toward it though.

I know you've posted before that you've gathered up data on this, but on a given team I can only imagine that on average you would have a max of 3 or 4 players to drop that go down to injury per week. I think a weekly limit of 10 is more than generous to compensate for end of season injury and value changes. Like I said, 10 is a good middle number that will draw the line between allowing a manager flexibility with his roster and churning. And yes, the transaction limitations will only be enforced in the H2H league(s).

Chrisy and I have discussed the advantages of laissez-faire unlimited weekly moves in H2H, backed up by a seasonal limit, and while I basically agree with him in theory, I'm pretty sure that if we allowed guys to use up their 35+ remaining moves in the final week of a season in a matchup with important ramifications, the league would end up being accused of allowing churning, regardless of our theoretical response that "each of those 35 moves represents a lost opportunity throughout the course of the season." Ten moves during a single matchup by an opponent feels like a lot; I've seen accusations of "churning" start to be tossed around when an opponent gets to six moves in a week, so a weekly limit of 10 is gonna feel high to many people, but keeping it as low as 10 at least gives most people a reasonable opportunity to deal with someone who is using up their moves in an important matchup, shall we say, creatively?

Creativity we like, flexibility we like, fantasy hoops is an art after all, not a science. Churning we don't like b/c it drives the numbers up artificially, like fishing in a pond using dynamite. Increasing the weekly limit from 3 to 10 is a major increase, but I'm reasonably convinced it'll improve the league by giving managers a free-er hand, within reasonabe limits. With a number as high as 10, I'm not seeing the need for a correlating rule that "drops for injuries don't count toward your 10," particularly b/c the so-called injuries at the end of seasons tend to be so questionable. Like Rounders said, 10 moves in a week should be more than enough, and is a big increase from the previous weekly limit of 3.


Meh, it reduces strategy and makes everyone act the same. 40 moves in the final week for all. Yeay, I love knowing the outcome before the season starts. Keep it simple and yet the most complex, 50 moves season max.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:02 am

Chrisy Moltisanti wrote:Meh, it reduces strategy and makes everyone act the same. 40 moves in the final week for all. Yeay, I love knowing the outcome before the season starts. Keep it simple and yet the most complex, 50 moves season max.

Radical change in a free society (such as the Octagon) is most sustainable when accomplished in digestible increments. Last season our weekly limit was 3 moves. 3 moves per week is probably the standard # in most private H2H leagues, including Cafe leagues. We've just increased it to 10 per week in the Octagon, being the progressive, cutting-edge league we like to be. Perhaps next season the full league membership will see the logic in doing away with weekly limits altogether but the sense I got from reading all the other posters in this discussion is the vast majority of league members still have zero interest in engaging in a 40 move "battle of the churners" and simply won't participate as a matter of principle, which would in virtually every case hand the matchup over to the team who unleashes the 5-6 add-drops per day on his opponent. I've seen that H2H technique up close and personal and it invariably comes down to who is willing to use the most moves and fill the most daily lineup slots, which is the exact definition of "knowing the outcome before it starts."

We've listened to all sides of this debate. Of all the Octagon members who have given their input, we have ALL BUT ONE for a rule that puts reasonable limits on end-of-season churning, we have ONE for a pure laissez-faire system of unlimited weekly moves. Even if the ONE is right, the opinion of EVERYONE ELSE deserves at least token respect, hence a weekly limit of 10, a number plenty high enough for some crafty small-time churning, but not enough to get truly ridiculous. Lets see how an increase from 3 to 10 moves per week plays out and use it as a transitional opportunity to get our H2H league membership comfortable with the idea of higher weekly moves.

BTW Chrisy, if you hadn't noticed, there won't be any repeats of the live draft problems experienced last season, we've prohibited the prerandomization of live drafts. Apologies to those those it affected, props for playing out the season hard.
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