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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:59 am

The penalty is small to very little if you don't decide to check-in a given week. The commissioner will set your lineup with the 10 highest ranked players until you do. Which again isn't such a bad thing since that would be what you would most likely be doing anyways. Let's not blow it out of proportion here samo, I know you like to go over the top sometimes. ;-) There are many aways around this like letting the commissioner know you won't be free on Sunday to post on the page but you already set your lineup. Given that we only set the lineups twice a week for an inactive team, I would say it would not encourage inactivity. If we did daily lineups that might be a different story.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby Netsfan5 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:07 am

samo wrote:
jaytizy wrote:I think thats a good point Chrisy has made about this rule possibly having an ill affect and leading to more dropouts. The proposed rule makes dropping out highly convenient and without punishment no less.

Given that at least 5-6 of our 24 h2h managers (roughly 25%) dropped out last season, it was pretty darn convenient to ditch a team last season w/o any rule in place. The punishment going forward, rule or no rule, would be barring the drop-out from returning the following season. The rule I proposed probably won't have any effect on the number of managers who go inactive, the only point to it is to try to address the situation I faced last season when I realized my opponent was sitting freaking Lebron James and a top tier Center, had been doing the same the week before me, and would likely be keeping Bron bron on the bench against his next opponent, my good friend and primary competitor last season, Dynasty Deacon. At the time, it actually seemed the fairest result (and most appropriate thing for me to do given the lack of a rule) to leave the dead team dead, let the Deacon have the same shot at pummelling the team I did, and just make sure the punishment was to not invite the manager back into the league.

Rounders' team went inactive for a large portion of last season but (a) he was invited back for obvious reasons, and (b) I didn't get a sense from anyone in his league that the final results were skewed by his inactivity or any of the other dead teams in the league, since everyone active presumably got at least some shot at going for a big win (not that a big win is always the result of playing a dead team, which can be VERY frustrating).

Netsfan5's team went inactive for the last several weeks of the regular season and the playoffs and (a) he dropped from 2nd to 6th place as a result (largely due to a failure to react to injuries), (b) he was invited back in part b/c the inactivity was not due to abandoning a team with no chance, but rather due to some inexplicable head injury he must have suffered to give up a shot at the Champion's league the way he did, and (c) the only team that got screwed by his inactivity was his own.

All of this is leading me to suspect that Chrisy (while continuing to misinterpret my proposed rule as advocating the trading of players from dead teams to active teams, which I believe is both physically and morally impossible in our league) is actually right on the money in his suggestion that we simply say (and I paraphrase) "DON'T JUST BAIL YOUR TEAM EVEN IF YOU THINK IT SUCKS OR ELSE YOU WON'T GET INVITED BACK AND WE'LL SEND DARIUS MILES AND HIS BUDDIES OUT TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND PUMMEL YOU!!"

How's that for a proposed rule?

Honestly, I want no part of "checking in" once a week, or if I was commish, keeping a weekly tally of who checked in and who didn't. Like jaytizy said, if we made it a league requirement, I'd hold my nose and do it (maybe), but that smacks of having a curfew and I never did well with those. Always got my straight A report cards, but don't tell me to be home by 11 on a Fri night when I got me Betty's all the way out in at some house party in North Hollywood. Come on now.


My head still hurts. %-6

I'd say we just have people report dead teams when they see one, and then the commish sets the lineups. But then you have managers who will want to benefit from playing a dead team, and then the commish has to start checking every team for activity (time consuming).

How about the league rotates on picking up Whang Zi Zi for a week. Everyone would have the benefit of playing a team with him, and the not so benefit of having him a week. If the person doesn't pick up Whang when it's their turn, then they are inactive and are dealt with accordingly. This also puts a new spin on the league, can Whang be used effectively?
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby Chrisy Moltisanti » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:55 am

this is why weekly lineup change h2h leagues work well.

How about the league rotates on picking up Whang Zi Zi for a week. Everyone would have the benefit of playing a team with him, and the not so benefit of having him a week. If the person doesn't pick up Whang when it's their turn, then they are inactive and are dealt with accordingly. This also puts a new spin on the league, can Whang be used effectively?


netsfan that's possibly the most awesome thing I've ever seen you post. :-b

personally, I like it.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:07 am

Netsfan5 steps up and shows why he didn't get dropped.

So, I just went back and re-read the Octagon Rules. Nearly everything pertains to the effective operation of the three-league tiered system. The "rule" we're discussing is proving very difficult to pin down. I think the general consensus is that we're only talking H2H here, not roto. Rounders has a pretty clear vision on how he can make it work. Jaytizy, who has graciously agreed to commish our upper league which will have an H2H component, doesn't necessarily share the vision, nor do I, to some extent.

I propose we informally ask each commish to (1) think about how they want to handle inactive teams, (2) make it clear to his particular league what the groundrules are going to be, and (3) enforce the rules, if any. The caliber and Cafe credentials of commissioners we have next season is impeccable and they can handle any heat they get, particularly since the Exec Committee got your back, assuming everything is done with the best of intentions.

To me, globally solving the fairness issues caused by fantasy inactivity would be nice, but it doesn't seem to lend itself to a nice clean solution that ends up being blatantly obvious and reasonably simple to administer, such as doing away with the fantasy playoffs as the way to determine final standings in H2H leagues. If you guys can work it out, fine by me, but I'm thinking the best way to handle it is to announce that abandoning one's team is bad form, will result in a manager losing the right to participate in the future, and is at the reasonable and consistently applied discretion of each commissioner as to how to deal with teams that are not being actively managed. Each league then has its marching orders and you're ready to roll.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:47 am

Jaytizy and I will talk about discuss this soon on our own and hopefully come to a consensus. If not then I'd rather we impose our separate rules/policies than not do anything about it at all. We share some common views about the issue at hand so the differences shouldn't be too major. Everything should continue to run smoothly. ;-D
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby geodbear » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:52 am

geodbear wrote:
It does become important that every manager should battle for every possible point or win at the end of the season, even if they are out of the race, in order to ensure that the Octagon champion has rightfully earned the title.


I wrote that more to request courtesy from managers to not go inactive at the very end as I felt the tie-breaking system for the champions league relied on a number of variables. No intent on making it an in-depth discussion on dealing with inactive managers.

Inactivity will happen as we all have lives outside of fantasy basketball (at least, I did when I last checked with my wife and my work :-b ). The biggest deterent is that you won't be asked to participate again. In a relatively competitive setting as we have here, it should minimize inactivity. It's probably best that each commissioner handles their league with as much consensus of the league managers and laying down their rules prior to the season starting.

Personally,for h2h, I think if it is agreed that a commissioner assumes "control" of an inactive team, the rules should be simple as possible to not let any questions of fairness come into play. In that case, I would say something like set the line up weekly, with the top bbm ranked players for that week as possible to fill positions. I would also say drops are allowed if a player is officially declared out for the season, to be replaced by the highest ranking player available that fills the position.

As for roto, I think it does come into play with the tie-breaking system in the Champions league, because each point could matter. If a manager is inactive for a prolonged period of time, I would rather invalidate his rankings and recalculate the standings. The other thing with roto, it is harder to spot an inactive manager unless you are actively policing. But, in the Champions league, I would assume if a team goes inactive in h2h, it'll go inactive in roto, but who knows.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:19 am

Alright jaytizy and I discussed the issue and we have both agreed to not put a system in place for several reasons:

1) Although it is not a big responsibility, the participation level in check-ins may decrease as the season goes on.
2) We are definitely not going to do the manager a favor and do daily lineup changes even if it will accomplish our purpose of evening the playing field. On the other hand, the effectiveness of setting the lineups twice a week for the manager is in question. Will the effort the commissioners put forth in setting the lineups be enough, or will it just win the inactive team 1 extra category?
3) A weekly check-in doesn't necessarily mean the manager will stay active the rest of the week. There is no real feasible way to make sure that the manager stays active unless he does it himself. It is essentially the manager's responsibility, not the commissioner's. We cannot be on activity patrol the whole season.
4) Inactivity is a part of every fantasy league even though it's one of the factors that can ruin the competitiveness of a league. It's very questionable as to whether or not its really a 'problem' that needs fixing. How can you call something a problem when it is in literally every fantasy league in every sport? It's just a part of the game.

But we will reiterate that inactivity will result in a manager being removed from this league. We will keep thinking about additional issues/problems and will enact new rules or change existing rules in the future if we deem it fit. Thanks for everyone who contributed to the discussion of this issue. ;-D
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby samo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:38 am

Rounders Block wrote:But we will reiterate that inactivity will result in a manager being removed from this league.

Seriously, a manager could finish dead last, 20 games behind the 11th place team, and he'll be invited back the following season as long as he keeps trying to improve his team with some add-drops, sets his line-ups, etc., at least until fantasy playoffs start and he is in the bottom bracket, at which point he is presumably free to abandon his team. I think it would be worthwile to PM this concept to each manager before the season starts. It seems so obvious, but it probably bears repeating that nobody will think badly of a manager if his team ends up being sorry, ruined by injury, or just plain snake-bit by the fantasy gods, but if he quits, that is bad on multiple levels, one of which is that it adds to the randomness factor of H2H leagues, which we're attempting to minimize.
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby bokzg » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:18 am

Rounders Block wrote:4) Inactivity is a part of every fantasy league even though it's one of the factors that can ruin the competitiveness of a league. It's very questionable as to whether or not its really a 'problem' that needs fixing. How can you call something a problem when it is in literally every fantasy league in every sport? It's just a part of the game.


Although probably a moot point, I would just like to point out that just because a problem is extremely pervasive, it doesn't mean it's not a problem. As an extreme example, compare it to something pervasive like poverty. Just because it's a part of every society in every country in every continent of the world doesn't mean that it's not a problem. If something has a negative impact, then it is a problem, whether it is present in isolated incidents or all over. However, this is more of a discussion regarding your reasoning and has no real bearing on the discussion :) The fact that you state intentions to continue to look for ways to resolve this issue suggest that you consider it to be a problem anyway, hehe.

With that said, I agree that the proposed solutions to inactive managers are not likely to help the problem much, and may even create additional problems. I support the decision to just leave things be and to just kick/ban managers who are inactive as was decided early on. Inactivity IS a major problem in fantasy sports, pervasive or not, but it is a problem to which we can find no good solution to at this point. The fact that
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Re: 2007 Offseason Housekeeping/Rules Discussion

Postby jphanned » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:17 am

What are your guys' thoughts on locking an inactive team and setting the lineups for that team once a week?

Couple issues:
- When do we determine it is time to lock a team?
- Criteria for possibly unlocking the team when the manager 'returns'?
- Without really disrupting the edge of playing an inactive team, it will keep the inactive team 'consistent' -- in the sense that as the season wears on more injuries will happen and it can be argued that playing an inactive team in Week 20 would be a bigger edge than playing the inactive team in Week 16.
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