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Re: 2010-2011 Champions League H2H Draft Log & Rosters

Postby greyone » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:54 pm

MiaME Rileys - Greyone

PG: George Hill (G - 10.12)
SG: Marcus Thornton (SG - 6.12)
G: Jason Richardson (GF - 4.12)
SF: Kevin Durant (SF - 1.01)
PF: Al Horford (FC - 3.01)
F: Stephan Jackson (GF - 5.01)
C: Chris Kaman (C - 7.01)
C: Al Jefferson (FC - 2.12)
U: Emeka Okafor (C - 8.12)
U: Luol Deng (SF - 9.01)
B: Tiago Splitter (F - 11.01)
B: Lou Williams (12.12)
B: Kirk Hinrich (13.01)
Last edited by greyone on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:53 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby greyone » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:57 pm

So-Tex wrote:
Rounders Block wrote:
jay_00 wrote:
Yea...11 and 12 sucks this year and i got the freakin 12th. Id rather have the 12th tho cuz i at least get to go back to back...but its still not fun at the bottom this year. :-t


Look at it on the bright side -- at least you're not drafting next to the 2-5 murderer's row of Sonny, plonden, the one, and samo. ;-)

Hell, looking at that lineup even scares me all the way over here in First Division H2H! :-*

You guys have your work cut out for you - good luck! :-D ;-D B-)


No doubt the 1st division leagues are STACKED. Kind of odd how that worked out.
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby samo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:56 pm

Rounders Block wrote:When we initially established the rules, the compromise we established between the traditionalists (standard H2H playoffs) and the progressives (eliminating them all together) was to score it cumulatively. Keeping the playoffs intact was a big sticking point in order to establish a middle ground. The playoffs would still count but it wouldn't be the end all, be all of who would win the league. Personally I agree with eliminating them as I was one of the ones who pushed for it early on, but I can't just ignore the faction of people who enjoy the traditional nature of H2H playoff competition. It would kind of ruin the point of having that initial 27-page discussion about the rules. I'll allow for it if the majority supports for it. We'll take care of this internally so expect a PM from your league commish if you are in a H2H league. We'll re-visit a permanent change in the rules next offseason.

Our 27-page discussion has served this league well by minimizing the importance of the final 3 weeks of the season when NBA teams are resting stars, etc. It was premised on the then-existing Yahoo! H2H league setting options - or lack thereof. One the one hand, I can see the reasoning behind wanting to use the "no-playoff" setting since that's now an option and that's (in theory) how our H2H leagues are set up. On the other hand, I think there's a nice symmetry to the current set-up of retaining the "Playoff" structure but only scoring them as standard Octagon weekly matches. By keeping the "Playoff" system but applying our own scoring, the net effect is to pit the top teams against each other as the season ends and the top managers are jockeying for final position. Isn't the "no-playoff" option likely to lead to one (or two) of the top teams randomly matched against a bottom-dweller (who has potentially stopped managing as there's always one (or two) of those each league? That doesn't seem as fair/ideal as using the Playoff "structure" as a mechanism to funnel the managers competing for top spots into match-ups against each other rather than one guy matched against a bottom-dwelling no-show and the other guy matched against a quality opponent working hard. I'd rather see the top guys matched against each other. There's my argument. Thoughts?
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby samo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:13 pm

Rounders Block wrote:Was just going through the league records and gotta give props to thelimey for being the only guy in Octagon history to compete in the Champions League in all 4 years of its existence.

Indeed, thelimey is solid, low-key, and always puts himself in position to compete. Is this the year he breaks-through? Will be very interesting to see who puts two solid teams together.

One of the things about the structure of this league I enjoy is its somewhat easier to stay in the Champions League once you're there than it is to get there in the first place. It makes that Champions League real-estate all the more valuable. ;-D
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Re: 2010-2011 First Division H2H Draft Log & Rosters

Postby phx_2008_champs » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:39 pm

PG: Rajon Rondo (PG - BOS) 2.07
SG: Raymond Felton (PG/SG - NYK) 4.07
G: Beno Udrih (PG - SAC) - 10.07
SF: Andrei Kirilenko (SF/PF - UTA) 6.07
PF: Lamar Odom (SF/PF - LAL) 7.06
F: Nene Hilario (PF/C - DEN) 3.06
C: Dwight Howard (C - ORL) 1.06
C: Andrew Bynum (C - LAL) 5.06
UT: Emeka Okafor (C - NOH) 8.07
UT: Anderson Varejao (PF/C - CLE) 9.06

BN: Rodney Stuckey (PG/SG - DET) 11.06
BN: Ronnie Brewer (SG/SF - CHI) 12.07
BN: Ben Wallace (PF/C - DET) 13.06
Last edited by phx_2008_champs on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:25 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby RedHopeful » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:43 pm

samo wrote:By keeping the "Playoff" system but applying our own scoring, the net effect is to pit the top teams against each other as the season ends and the top managers are jockeying for final position. Isn't the "no-playoff" option likely to lead to one (or two) of the top teams randomly matched against a bottom-dweller (who has potentially stopped managing as there's always one (or two) of those each league? That doesn't seem as fair/ideal as using the Playoff "structure" as a mechanism to funnel the managers competing for top spots into match-ups against each other rather than one guy matched against a bottom-dwelling no-show and the other guy matched against a quality opponent working hard. I'd rather see the top guys matched against each other. There's my argument. Thoughts?

I get your point Samo and it's a good one, but I prefer to look at the season as a totality. If the winner is to be chosen based on cumulative standings, it makes more sense to avoid any playoff structure. Reason being is exactly what you mention - favorable league schedule. Just as you state you feel it's perhaps questionable to have a champion emerge based on playing "cupcake" competition the final weeks, I feel you can't dismiss the entire season up to that point. Who is to say that the guy who emerges already has already played the tougher part of the schedule but now happens to have the soft guys on the docket? Do we want to penalize him while rewarding the guy who has already tackled the easier competition? With the league having 12 teams playing 24 weeks, I like that each team gets to face everyone twice.

I realize that the larger concern is guys going MIA come season's end, but I really don't fear this that much in a competitive league like the Octagon. If this does happen in an unlikely event, that person should never be allowed to compete in this league again.
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby samo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:09 pm

RedHopeful wrote:I realize that the larger concern is guys going MIA come season's end, but I really don't fear this that much in a competitive league like the Octagon. If this does happen in an unlikely event, that person should never be allowed to compete in this league again.

Fair enough. I've found myself in that 2nd/3rd H2H position often enough and felt MUCH better about controlling my own destiny (to an extent) by knowing I'd have a chance to go against my primary opponent rather than helplessly watch him go 8-1 against some dead team in the final week. I'm specifically thinking of the Champions League H2H of 2008-2009 final weeks when Rounders and I were locked in an epic struggle in both H2H and Roto (ultimately won by me thanks largely to CavemanDoctor's spectacular late-season push to get past RB and finish 2nd in Roto, pushing RB down to third - THANKS AGAIN CD!).

This is getting REALLY nitpicky, but if Rounders had finished 2nd in Roto, we'd have tied overall with 3 points each (a 1st and a 2nd in each league) and it would've come down to our tiebreaker (which I PROBABLY would have won due to size of Roto lead but if he'd put a massive pounding on some dead team in final week it could have been dicey for me). With the Playoff H2H system I worked my way to a H2H finals matchup against RB and was able to prevent him from extending his H2H percentage lead TOO much (I think he won 5-4 maybe) compared to what he could have done to one of the inactive teams we had that season.

Like I said, its nitpicky and if the consensus is to ditch the Playoff structure, I won't stand in the way. Just reminiscing about how I appreciated having the Playoff structure to work my way into a matchup against my primary competitor in 08-09.

Last point, yes its a competitive league but there are ALWAYS managers who go MIA for whatever reason. Sometimes the reason is really quite compelling and we've tended to cut guys alot of slack when they want back in after a family emergency, etc. Again, I'm not insisting the Playoff structure be retained, just pointing out its potential strategic benefits as managers jockey for position in the final weeks of a season. :-)
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby RedHopeful » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:23 pm

Nice to see the system worked out for you samo. ;-D

However, consider a top team or two heads into the playoffs limping - ie injuries, players being sat for real life playoffs, etc. Suddenly, they might miss out on the championship because of this "weighted method" Really by going head to head down the stretch with the best does put more emphasis on the final weeks as % points could swing more in one direction or another.

Perhaps, I'm being the picky one here but I just like the idea if we're going to use the entire season to count towards the final standings, we shouldn't have a few weeks be considered more important than others.

EDIT: Really is no right or wrong answer - it's what people prefer individually. One, a completely balanced weekly competition where at the end, you add it all up, you've got your winner. Two, balanced weekly competition for the majority of the season where at the end, add a twist that allows for more mobility up/down the standings thereby possibly influencing a change in the final outcome.
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby samo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:00 pm

RedHopeful wrote:Nice to see the system worked out for you samo. ;-D

The debate is healthy. I'm fine either way, just wanted to point out some of the strategic implications.

Regarding the "system working" for me (really it was CavemanDoctor competing hard that worked for me, similar to the year before where a single flurry of 3 Camby late game blocks one the final day of the season pushed me past jaytizy in BLKS in the Roto league, got me up to 6th overall, saved my spot in the upper league, and knocked 'tizy out of first-pace in the combined standings - 3 stinkin' 4th quarter Camby blocks (like a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil) changed the entire Champions league outcome).

I'm rambling now, but what the Playoff system allowed me to do was effectively "stalk" my primary competitor to ensure I'd be matched against him at least once in the final weeks and thereby try to control my own destiny. If he beat me 8-1 (which RB has a disturbing tendency to to against my "balanced" H2H teams), then so be it. The non-Playoff structure would presumably be clean and mathematically "accurate" but I just enjoyed the blood-sport style mano-a-mano opportunity the "modified" Playoff structure provided. Again, this is a great discussion and switching over to the non-playoff H2H system would be fine.

As you correctly point out, we're really not talking about a massive change. The massive change was the original decision to base final standings on full-season cumulative win-loss totals rather than actual Playoff results. Keeping a modified Playoff structure or doing away with Playoffs entirely still retains our basic cumulative win-loss percentage premise ... so its all good! ;-D
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Re: 2010-2011 Offseason Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Again, I was writing this as Samo posted his response, so please excuse me if it pretty much mirrors anything else which has already been said. (Damn! I really got to learn to type faster! :-° )

I didn't really make this known when I cast my vote, but here's my take...

I'm of the opinion that the playoffs are what define the H2H game - you play the whole season just to get in - once you're in, it's anyone's ballgame. Maybe there was a manger who had a couple of bad breaks throughout the year, but managed to get into that last playoff spot. Then, he "out-manages" (for lack of a better word) the other guys in the playoffs and wins the championship. In my opinion, that's the guy who deserves to move up to the next level. He took nothing, and made something of it using his skills as a manager. And that's what we want at the Champions level, right? The best managers.

But having said that, I voted for the rule change. I agree with Red in that if you're going to use the entire season to determine the final standings - in other words, make the H2H game more "roto-centric" (props to Rounders Block for turning me on to that phrase! ;-D ) - then you shouldn't use a playoff system during the final weeks. It puts the top ranked teams at a disadvantage that last week, as they are playing an opponent (presumably each other) who is equal to, or better, in strength. Say that match-up is determined by a 4-4-1 tie-breaker - it could actually hurt both top squads, as the 3rd place guy might have a big win in his game, and leap frog the other two. Instead, set H2H match-ups throughout the season (as has been already mentioned) and just let the schedule fall as it may.

If we do keep a playoff system in place, maybe we should consider weighing those results as a percentage of the final standings. Say for example, a team who finishes 8th in the season standings manages to win the championship - although he rightly deserves to be champion of the league (as I stated before), his championship win only counts towards a certain percentage of the total of what he needs to win the league title outright. This way, if you have a 1st place/seeded manager who was dominant throughout the year but just fell short in the playoffs (maybe took 2nd place there), he still has a good chance of winning the league title due to his hard work during the season.

Bottom line: if you're going to count the whole season, remove the playoff bracket, or have the playoff results hold less weight than the regular season results. Otherwise, don't count the season, and use the playoff result to determine the champion of the league.

That's my two... :-)
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