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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:37 am

i myself don't see the need to put anybody on waivers. i was thinking we let free agency run until few days before the season starts , then i input all the rosters and then we start our season period, but all fas remain available to be be auctioned off at any time between now and the end of the season
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby RedHopeful » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:21 pm

KalElen wrote:i myself don't see the need to put anybody on waivers. i was thinking we let free agency run until few days before the season starts , then i input all the rosters and then we start our season period, but all fas remain available to be be auctioned off at any time between now and the end of the season

So vote first, compile FA list and then hold auctions? O:-)
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:55 pm

I meant for someone in my situation who has too many people on their team and needs to release some.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:11 pm

RedHopeful wrote:
KalElen wrote:i myself don't see the need to put anybody on waivers. i was thinking we let free agency run until few days before the season starts , then i input all the rosters and then we start our season period, but all fas remain available to be be auctioned off at any time between now and the end of the season

So vote first, compile FA list and then hold auctions? O:-)

exactly. now is the time to add any rules if want them to be included into vote

scully19 wrote:I meant for someone in my situation who has too many people on their team and needs to release some.

you will be able to keep them until few days before start of the season and then you'll have to drop someone to get down to 14. dropped players are available for bidding straight away
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:17 am

Will you be sending us a PM as far as when the vote will be and when FA nominations can begin? I noticed that I haven't been recieving any email notices for new posts in this thread - I usually get them for threads I've posted in, but I'm guessing there's some kind of cut off point or something. And it's been a while (although not that long) since I've posted in this thread.

I'll keep checking in, though, just to be safe.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:48 am

Not sure if I missed something in the rules, or just don't understand them well enough yet, but I think the salaries for both rookies and player's with bird rights shouldn't count towards a teams cap until a later date and time, so that teams with cap space aren't forced to use it to resign their own players before they get a chance to win other free agents. This would more realistically mimic the situation in the NBA, where teams free up as much cap space for recruiting FA's by signing them before their rookies and player's with bird rights, then using the rookie and bird right exceptions to full effect. Unlike here the NBA obviously do not have a 24 hour auction clock, but I think it would be a mistake to allow the order auctions conclude dictate the terms on how a team can approach free agency.

For example, if Miami were forced to resign Dwyane Wade early because of an auction deadline they'd have been unable to then sign both LeBron and Bosh. They've managed to exceed the cap by first using all their free cap space to sign Bosh and Bron, then use the bird rights to sign Wade and Haslem, MLE for Miller, and vet min exceptions for everyone else. Likewise, if I am forced to resign ie. JR Smith before I win an auction for another player I'll lose my cap space paying JR, when I could have simply promised him the cash, waited on signing him until the auctions on the FA's I'm targetting have concluded.

Likewise for my rookies, given we have rookie exceptions to allow us to exceed the soft cap to sign them it would make no sense if their salaries were already affecting our cap space. The rookoie exception becomes meaningless.

Allowing the teams to promise a contract to a player (assuming they remain under the hard cap of course) but delay having to add it to their salary cap seems to me to be a relatively simple way to avoid this problem. I've PM'ed Kal about this a few days before but he's been too busy lately. Thought I'd put it out there and see if I've missed something in the rules or if other people were having similar thoughts.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:45 am

Markos wrote:Not sure if I missed something in the rules, or just don't understand them well enough yet, but I think the salaries for both rookies and player's with bird rights shouldn't count towards a teams cap until a later date and time, so that teams with cap space aren't forced to use it to resign their own players before they get a chance to win other free agents. This would more realistically mimic the situation in the NBA, where teams free up as much cap space for recruiting FA's by signing them before their rookies and player's with bird rights, then using the rookie and bird right exceptions to full effect. Unlike here the NBA obviously do not have a 24 hour auction clock, but I think it would be a mistake to allow the order auctions conclude dictate the terms on how a team can approach free agency.

You know that this is not how the NBA works right? Bird rights are held against teams, with a increase as well on their final year of the contract to a large amount as well so that you basically need to deal with them first. And the second you draft a player you hold their rights and have the contract count against your cap as well, even before officially being signed.

For example, if Miami were forced to resign Dwyane Wade early because of an auction deadline they'd have been unable to then sign both LeBron and Bosh. They've managed to exceed the cap by first using all their free cap space to sign Bosh and Bron, then use the bird rights to sign Wade and Haslem, MLE for Miller, and vet min exceptions for everyone else. Likewise, if I am forced to resign ie. JR Smith before I win an auction for another player I'll lose my cap space paying JR, when I could have simply promised him the cash, waited on signing him until the auctions on the FA's I'm targetting have concluded.

This example is just wrong. Wade agreed to sign back, but the official signings of all of these guys didn't happen until they were all agreed to coming and they could agree on a figure. They all signed at the same time, not the other way around. They never exceeded the cap until they started signing everyone to veteran minimums because it is all they could afford.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

See the salaries, 14.5 + 14.5+14 = 43 + Mario Chalmers at .8 gives 44ish. Not at the cap. They then used the rest of who they could.

Likewise for my rookies, given we have rookie exceptions to allow us to exceed the soft cap to sign them it would make no sense if their salaries were already affecting our cap space. The rookoie exception becomes meaningless.

Allowing the teams to promise a contract to a player (assuming they remain under the hard cap of course) but delay having to add it to their salary cap seems to me to be a relatively simple way to avoid this problem. I've PM'ed Kal about this a few days before but he's been too busy lately. Thought I'd put it out there and see if I've missed something in the rules or if other people were having similar thoughts.

I had thoughts about this, but in the hopes that it was understood that the MLE counts against the cap from the start, so if you are under the cap by like 10 mill then you get no MLE because that is the way it should be.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dasein » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:34 am

scully is on the money. The NBA has cap holds on free agents until a team either resigns them or renounces their rights. Just like us. :-D

Also, one mans free agent target is another mans bird-rights free agent. Surely the order that you sign players, depends on the order that the league nominates players in. How could it be any other way?
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:18 am

markos, i responded to your pm the day you sent it. i can see that it's still in my outbox, meaning you haven't read it, so you must have missed it. anyway here is my answer, word for word:

that's not how nba works. wade had a cap hold counting against heat's cap all the time, so heat got no advantage by signing lbj and bosh first. wade cap hold counted against cap since the moment the season ended to the moment he signed a new deal. bosh and lbj were signed because heat were far enough under the cap to be able to offer them those deals even with wade's cap hold being on the books. in fact they were bellow the cap limit even after signing all three guys, so they could sign mike miller too. they didn't have mle, because they were under the cap entering off-season and in the nba teams don't get mle if they are under the cap. i'm 100% sure about that. furthermore we instituted cap holds and bird rights to prevent that very thing, people signing other gm's fas using cap space and then resigning their own once they get to the cap limit.
of course just because i'm not in favor of this idea, doesn't meant that you should drop the issue if you feel strongly about it. you can post it and see what rest of the league thinks
whatever happens with this one, i want to thank you for trying to improve the league, usually only 2-3 of us bother with coming up with new rules and i'm glad to see that you and some other new guys are putting in time and effort into this ;-D


so baiscally i agree with scully almost 100%. as for mle, in nba if you are $1 under the cap you don't get mle. that is not a good solution imo. by that system being 1M under the cap is worse then being over the cap. that's why we give mle to everyone and it counts against their caps. those who are under the cap and can renounce mle with no charge and use their cap space. we don't have to mimic nba on every single issue. if we see a rule that we don't like we don't have to follow it. our solution is simple and effective

So-Tex wrote:Will you be sending us a PM as far as when the vote will be and when FA nominations can begin? I noticed that I haven't been recieving any email notices for new posts in this thread - I usually get them for threads I've posted in, but I'm guessing there's some kind of cut off point or something. And it's been a while (although not that long) since I've posted in this thread.

I'll keep checking in, though, just to be safe.


i'll send out pm's when it's time to vote and again when it's time to start bidding. i want to give a little more time to people to suggest new rules and discuss them before the vote. i'd like to avoid new issue coming up every few weeks and having to do another vote every few weeks. auction will start a day or two after the vote is done, hopefully in the 2nd half of next week (depending on how fast the vote goes)
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:05 am

Sorry Kal, I totally missed your reply until just now. Thanks for the response, and the kind words.

First, I was wrong about the Miami situation. I'm not sure why I thought they used bird rights to re-sign Wade. And I was wrong about the rookie contracts too. After reading your replies I dug a little deeper and just read that teams under the cap must add the rookie salary scale for any unsigned 1st round picks. I have no problem with this.

But I should stress I'm not suggesting we remove the cap hold for players we hold bird rights too. I fully support the cap holds remaining in place and counting towards the cap unless a GM chooses to relinquish the bird rights to that player. For example, I should be forced to keep some cash aside for JR Smith and Jamale Crawford as I intend on resigning them, but Mike Bibby's $3.75m cap hold is probably more a hindrance than his bird rights are helpful. If I can get further under the cap I'll probably waive his bird rights and release his cap hold, so I can throw around a little more than the MLE in free agency

Also, I agree with the current MLE rule. In the NBA money is real, where here it's just a number. Penalising teams for being $1m under the cap by removing the MLE from their arsenal wouldn't make much sense to me either.

But what I'm still concerned about is this; When a player's auction ends and a GM with bird rights retains him, are they then forced to replace the cap hold with the new salary immediately?

In the NBA I can add a FA with my cap space, and then use my bird rights on a player to exceed the soft cap. But I can't do it the other way around. I can still resign my own guy of course, but I can't then go out and offer the FA the same cash I could have in the previous scenario as I'm limited by the cap.
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