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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:23 am

DVauthrin wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:Warning: Ignorant post below...

I thought the MLE only came into play (at least in the NBA) when teams were over the hard cap? Is there a reason why that is not done in this league? Do teams in the NBA renounce the MLE?

Once a year, teams are allowed to sign a player to a contract equal to the average NBA salary, even if the team is over the salary cap already, or if the signing would put them over the cap. This is known as the Mid-level exception (MLE). The MLE may be used on an individual free agent or split among multiple free agents, and is available to any team that exceeds the salary cap at the beginning of the offseason. The Mid-Level Exception for the 2008–09 NBA season was $5.585 million.[2] The MLE is $5.854 million for the 2009–10 NBA regular season.


In the NBA you get the MLE(rounded to 6 mil) when you are over the the soft cap. If applied to our league, it would be granted to teams with payrolls over 65 million in our league. However, Kal decided to offer every team the MLE regardless if you are over the soft cap or not. He wanted more activity in Free Agency and didn't care for the NBA's rule.

Yes, you can renounce the MLE. Basically, if you have less than 6 mil in cap space under the soft cap or have a team payroll over 65M you keep the MLE. If you have more than 6 mil in space under the soft cap you renounce the MLE, just like cap holds.

I don't believe this is entirely correct, though it won't really change much.

The MLE is a cap hold in the same sense that the players on your team that you have bird rights are cap holds. They are like reserved space. Every team in the NBA does actually have the MLE count against their cap (along with the Bi-Annual exception), if those combined, when added to your payroll (including player holds) are more than the soft cap, then you have an MLE to spend. If not then you basically lose the MLE because you have too much cap space. You can call it an MLE if you want, but if you have 10m to spend and claim 6m of it was MLE, go ahead it just doesn't make a difference though. You would not be able to go over the soft cap in this scenario though.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:29 am

DVauthrin wrote:
hi chi wrote:So I guess I am 100% ok with changing the years. I am kind of ok with changing the %s each year (but I do think it seems like a bit of a punishment to have a bird right with this change). I am not so ok with the increase of the cap hold (especially if it is to take place this year).


There is no need to increase the cap hold amount if we implement a combination of my plan and Markos' plan. That would be entirely unfair to bird rights player.

I don't feel the percentage increase in value as you offer shorter contracts is a punishment. If you want to offer the minimum increase to beat the leading bid, offer the same years as the leading bid. If you want that player for a year less than the leading bid, you have to offer substantially more than a 250K increase in average salary. If i'm a free agent and I get offered 5.5M over 3 years(16.5M total), i'm not going to be keen on an offer of 5.75M over 2 years. That's only 11.5M in total salary, or a 5 million dollar dropoff. If we use the 30% over two years, the average salary would be 7.48M. The contract value then comes out to 14.96M, or within 1.5 mil of the three year amount. Now the player will be more apt to consider the 2 year deal over the three year one.

Personally I would still want to have an increase in cap hold value, especially because we are only needing 1 year contracts. Anyone signed by any team at the end of the draft for dirt cheap that may have a good year and be in for a very nice increase (which happens all the time) is now basically held on the team for pennies. They can then go out and sign whatever they want with their cap space minus a few pennies, and then resign this player for a very large amount thanks to bird rights. If I have 10 mill in cap space, and am holding a player on my team for 0.25m, then you can spend 9.75 mill before being maxed out, and then go ahead and sign that player for 10. The cap holds need to be a much bigger burden or they can and will be exploited easily.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:37 am

scully19 wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:Warning: Ignorant post below...

I thought the MLE only came into play (at least in the NBA) when teams were over the hard cap? Is there a reason why that is not done in this league? Do teams in the NBA renounce the MLE?



In the NBA you get the MLE(rounded to 6 mil) when you are over the the soft cap. If applied to our league, it would be granted to teams with payrolls over 65 million in our league. However, Kal decided to offer every team the MLE regardless if you are over the soft cap or not. He wanted more activity in Free Agency and didn't care for the NBA's rule.

Yes, you can renounce the MLE. Basically, if you have less than 6 mil in cap space under the soft cap or have a team payroll over 65M you keep the MLE. If you have more than 6 mil in space under the soft cap you renounce the MLE, just like cap holds.


I don't believe this is entirely correct, though it won't really change much.

The MLE is a cap hold in the same sense that the players on your team that you have bird rights are cap holds. They are like reserved space. Every team in the NBA does actually have the MLE count against their cap (along with the Bi-Annual exception), if those combined, when added to your payroll (including player holds) are more than the soft cap, then you have an MLE to spend. If not then you basically lose the MLE because you have too much cap space. You can call it an MLE if you want, but if you have 10m to spend and claim 6m of it was MLE, go ahead it just doesn't make a difference though. You would not be able to go over the soft cap in this scenario though.


I was just trying to explain how the MLE works in our league in a simplified response.

As for cap holds needing to be increased, an easier fix(without having to increase cap holds) would be that we have to nominate all the bird rights players and complete their bidding before getting to general free agents. If we did that, owners would be eating into their general cap room first when resigning bird rights guys. If you are under the soft cap by more than six million dollars, it reduces the rest of your money. For teams near or over the hard cap, it could cut into your MLE depending on how much you spend to keep your own guys.

That said, I still don't see it as a terribly big deal. You're right, in the scenario you posed, you can sign your guy to a 10M average salary, but you will have to offer a three year contract with it. In three years that contract could look like a steal, or incredibly foolish. It also affects your future cap flexibility, which is the risk you take when spending over your means. Even if you only offer 5-9.99 mil, it still requires a two year commitment.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby hi chi » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:20 pm

scully19 wrote:
Personally I would still want to have an increase in cap hold value, especially because we are only needing 1 year contracts. Anyone signed by any team at the end of the draft for dirt cheap that may have a good year and be in for a very nice increase (which happens all the time) is now basically held on the team for pennies. They can then go out and sign whatever they want with their cap space minus a few pennies, and then resign this player for a very large amount thanks to bird rights. If I have 10 mill in cap space, and am holding a player on my team for 0.25m, then you can spend 9.75 mill before being maxed out, and then go ahead and sign that player for 10. The cap holds need to be a much bigger burden or they can and will be exploited easily.


I agree that there would be some advantage for bird rights under the current hold system, but I think there should be some kind of advantage. If a player goes out and gets a value player that is due to their savvy or luck (depending on you how you look it) that is part of the game. Increasing a cap hold to 200 or 300% is now putting a player at a pretty significant disadvantage in the offseason in my opinion. That makes no sense to me (even if I didn't have a boat load of bird rights player this year). Why not just blow up all the rosters every year so that we all start from scratch if you want to keep things absolutely even? The answer is clear, because it is a dynasty-like league and the point is to try to keep and build a team that can win every year. If I had a player at 8M and he counted for 16M (200%) against my cap I wouldn't be very happy and to me that makes little sense. When you add in a high % caphold you are trying to encourage guys to drop their bird right players which is great if you want a straight up bidding war for guys each year. If this is what we want why not just get rid of bird rights? This seems to be an easier way to create "fairness" that the increased caphold seems intended to make.


I do like the combined idea of DV's and Marko's plan. It seems to keep things a little more even without creating the extra capholds that in my opinion go too far in punishing bird right holders. I would also be ok with saying that bird rights FA have to be the first players bid on to eliminate the situation that scully is talking about. That seems reasonable to me and similar to a RFA bidding process.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:49 pm

i'm not crazy about increasing cap holds either. 200% or 300% become real problem for guys signed to significant sums and make little difference for players signed to min and near min contracts. having 5M guy count as 10M is not fair and having 250k guy count even as 750k when he is worth entire mle or more is inconsequential imo

two things i have to mention:
1) regarding mle you can't offer 7+6.5+6. your starting salary can't be higher then mle regardless of if you are frontloading, backloading or going flat. i think i saw that in one of posts
2) mle is not used to sign bird free agents. only situation when bird free agents affect mle is when they are forcing their bird rights owner to waive the mle in order to be far enough under the hard cap to sign said bird fa:
example: my salary is 70M and i have 5M of my mle remaining pushing my used cap space to 75M. if i want to sign my bird fa with 1M cap hold to 8M 1st year salary, i have to renounce rest of my mle in order to get down to 70M and then be able ti sign him to 8M starting salary pushing my total salary to 77M (70M - 1M cap hold + 8M starting salary). now i'm 3M under the hard cap and can use only min bids on non bird fas
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:50 pm

DVauthrin wrote:
scully19 wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
In the NBA you get the MLE(rounded to 6 mil) when you are over the the soft cap. If applied to our league, it would be granted to teams with payrolls over 65 million in our league. However, Kal decided to offer every team the MLE regardless if you are over the soft cap or not. He wanted more activity in Free Agency and didn't care for the NBA's rule.

Yes, you can renounce the MLE. Basically, if you have less than 6 mil in cap space under the soft cap or have a team payroll over 65M you keep the MLE. If you have more than 6 mil in space under the soft cap you renounce the MLE, just like cap holds.


I don't believe this is entirely correct, though it won't really change much.

The MLE is a cap hold in the same sense that the players on your team that you have bird rights are cap holds. They are like reserved space. Every team in the NBA does actually have the MLE count against their cap (along with the Bi-Annual exception), if those combined, when added to your payroll (including player holds) are more than the soft cap, then you have an MLE to spend. If not then you basically lose the MLE because you have too much cap space. You can call it an MLE if you want, but if you have 10m to spend and claim 6m of it was MLE, go ahead it just doesn't make a difference though. You would not be able to go over the soft cap in this scenario though.


I was just trying to explain how the MLE works in our league in a simplified response.

As for cap holds needing to be increased, an easier fix(without having to increase cap holds) would be that we have to nominate all the bird rights players and complete their bidding before getting to general free agents. If we did that, owners would be eating into their general cap room first when resigning bird rights guys. If you are under the soft cap by more than six million dollars, it reduces the rest of your money. For teams near or over the hard cap, it could cut into your MLE depending on how much you spend to keep your own guys.
See I'm not a fan of this because then there is little advantage to holding bird rights as it makes you use up your cap space before hand.

That said, I still don't see it as a terribly big deal. You're right, in the scenario you posed, you can sign your guy to a 10M average salary, but you will have to offer a three year contract with it. In three years that contract could look like a steal, or incredibly foolish. It also affects your future cap flexibility, which is the risk you take when spending over your means. Even if you only offer 5-9.99 mil, it still requires a two year commitment.

10M only has a minimum yearly commitment of 2 years.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:15 am

so we are making these two changes:

-when offering contracts to free agents:
1) offers within 50% and 100% of the maximum have to be between 2 and 4 years long
2) offers within 25% and 49% of the maximum have to be between 2 (used to be 1) and 3 years long
3) offers smaller then 25% of the maximum can go between 1 and 2 years


each extra year adds 25% value to the average contract.
example:
10+10+10+10
equals
12.5+12.5+12.5
equals
15+15


i know some of you wanted 30% but 25% makes calculations simpler


now that is done, let the games begin. auction is officially open.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:31 am

Sounds great Kal, let the games begin.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:34 am

KalElen wrote: each extra year adds 25% value to the average contract.
example:
10+10+10+10
equals
12.5+12.5+12.5
equals
15+15


i know some of you wanted 30% but 25% makes calculations simpler
[/quote]
WTF?! How does that math make any sense? I apologize for not having read the fine print in this thread, I just changed jobs and I've had no time for anything, but I figured the outcome of the percentage discussion would be self explanatory. The math above, however, isn't. Does that mean that in any case where the contract I offer is longer than one year that the average value of that contract is 25% higher in all cases? I wonder, because according to the example above, that 10M for four years contract should be worth 10M x 175% (25% x3 extra years), which equals 17.5M. However, the 12.5M contract should be worth 12.5M x 150% (25% x 2) which is 18.75M. Or perhaps the modifier applies to the total contract, which is then divided by years? Except that doesn't match up either. :-o

Anyway I cut it, those contracts don't look anyhting close to equal ewxcept in a completely solipsistiuc way when looked at one after the nest and only in isolation. When looked at as individual offers, I just don't see how any kind of order of operations makes them equal. I imagine I'm just missing something very basic, but I can't seem to figure it out. Perhaps being way over-tired has something to do with it.

Let's put it this way, if those three above contracts were the initial offers on three different free agents, how do I fugure that they're equal? Because if they're not equal in an absolute sense then it doen't work for free agency, becuase the contract can't just be equal when referenced against one other contract, the math has to stand on it's own. Someone explain to me what I've missed here. :-D
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:57 am

Compounded interest.

10 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 19.53125
12.5 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 19.53125
15 * 1.25 = 18.75...so this one doesn't work.
15.625 * 1.25 = 19.53125 though.
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