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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:03 am

dch17 wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
hi chi wrote:So I can't use my MLE AND a bird right player at the same time?????? :-? If not then I am completly bamboozled by the rules.


You absolutely should be able to sign someone with your MLE while bidding on your own bird rights free agent. Both bids are valid in my mind.



So if I'm capped (soft cap) by my offers to free agents I can still bid on my bird right players?


Yes. You can exceed the soft cap when trying to resign your bird right players. You just can't go over 80 mil.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:43 am

Dear League,

I have to work practically all day tomorrow (till midnight pacific time). I would like the right to match any bid on Perkins but I understand that bids are final after 24 hours, if no one matches your bid. So if someone bid tonight, I would not be able to match them. I will be able to get back online at about 6:00 PM PST on Wednesday so its not a significant window that the bid would have to be extended.

Thanks for the consideration.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dch17 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:51 am

Seems reasonable, I'd agree to that.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:53 am

DVauthrin wrote:
hi chi wrote:So I can't use my MLE AND a bird right player at the same time?????? :-? If not then I am completly bamboozled by the rules.


You absolutely should be able to sign someone with your MLE while bidding on your own bird rights free agent. Both bids are valid in my mind.

and you are able to do that. mle has nothing to do with bird fas since mle already counts against your cap and you are using bird rights to go over the soft cap. only restriction here is hard cap
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby hi chi » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:01 am

For people that understand the rules better than I do (most of you) is coffeeman's bid on Ariza "legal"? Previous bid was 6.4. His bid is 6.6. I thought that increases for players above 5M had to be 250K. Or is there a modifier to this rule that allows for a 200K increase? I am just trying to get my head around the rules.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:10 am

I know I'm repeating myself, Kal (if you got my PM earlier), but I just feel this needs to be out there in discussion.

I get where I made the mistake earlier regarding when the time period for bidding on a player is up. It's 24 hours after the last bid was made - in other words, a manager doesn't win a player until 24 hours goes by without another bid on that player. I thought it was 24 hours from the time a player was first nominated. So I'm clear on that now.

However...

Let's say I've got a good chunk of my mle tied up in the bid for a player (which I do in this case), then I want to place a bid on another guy who's up for auction and is within my budget. It seems conceivable to me that other managers could tie me up in the bidding process for the first player for several days. Maybe not intentionally, but it could happen.

And if I want to bid on another player, I could make either one of my bids invalid in one of two ways:

    I could end up winning the first player using more of the mle than I thought I would have to - in which case, I would win the first player and just void the second bid, I get that.
    I could win the second player because the 24 hour period on him would end sooner - thus, the first bid would be invalid because I could no longer afford it - this could happen if managers just keep re-upping the bid on the first player every 12-23 hours or so.

So the problem I'm having with this is simple - what if the guy I want takes me 3 or 4 days to get - and in that time frame, other players get nominated and won, for contracts that I COULD HAVE afforded because I still had room with my mle. I see a serious handcuff here - it was going to be hard enough for me, and others in my situation, to pick up players who could at least give me a fighting chance, especially after the mle runs out - remember, we are over the soft cap (which is actually stating to look like a bad idea to me to be honest).

But now, I have to wait and see if the one player I have nominated (who I really do want) will get bid on again for another 14 hours or so - and if someone does come in and place bid, and I then immediately re-up that bid, it'll be another 24 hours after that?!? In the meantime, another player who I would like to see if I can pick up, may just come and go, simply because I can't take the chance on spending any of my mle and "losing" the first player.

And if I don't get the guy I want (in other words, if I lose the first player's auction), then I'll have 6M of the mle to work with - but no one worth spending it on?!?

This is really not making any logical sense to me, guys. And again, I'm sorry if it's coming out only just now, but I had to actually see it in action to understand how it works. And it's starting to make me feel a bit frustrated, since it seems I'm going to have a difficult time getting serviceable players to fill roster spots this season, which is required in the rules.

At least in a standard snake draft, guys in the 8th, 9th, and 10th rounds can be used on a roster, somewhere - the rest are adds and drops. Here, I'm going to be stuck with minimum contract players who no one wants (because that's all I will be able afford after I use up the mle), just so I can have the required number of players on my roster for any given night. And to top it off, I can't really use my mle for anything but one or two players - and it looks like I may miss out on a couple of guys who I might actually be able to afford, simply because I have to wait and see if I'll have enough of the mle left.

I'm sorry if this seems like I'm just rambling on or dumping on the league and all - and I'm not the type to be inactive or defeatist - but it looks more and more like I'll just sit out the rest of free agency until everyone has their fill, then just grab a bunch of scrubs at the last minute, and let the chips fall where they may. I couldn't be any worse off then where I'm at now. :-/

And I've got a better understanding why silentjim feels this auction will take forever. :-C
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:08 pm

At any time you on outbid on the original player you want you can switch it up and go after other players. Also for the most part players take generally the same amount of time to bid on so this really isn't as big an issue as you are making it out to be. This is life of a GM though, you go after the guys you really want first and then you need to adjust and replan should you not be able to get him.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:33 pm

@So-Tex if you hold a high bid on a player, first year amount is taken off your cap space/mle depending on what you are using to bid. so if another player you like comes up and you want to bid on him but are unable due to holding a high bid on 1st player you can't do anything about it (other then try to clear more cap space)
example: you have high bid on splitter of 2m, so you can't bid more then 4m on anybody else (because you are using mle). you can't offer 5m to manu and then wave that bid if you end up wining splitter. only if somebody else outbids you on splitter can you offer up to full mle to manu, wich would leave you penniless and unable to bid on splitter
having just mle to work with is tough, but that's how it is in real nba. even if you see that as a loophole in the rules, there is no way around it. it is part of this league for better or for worse. that's why you need to plan carefully how high you are willing to go and try to figure out what other guys are doing. personally i don't see this as a problem, but as a natural part of free agency, but if you have some suggestions about changing any portion of the rules, we can always talk about it
as for going for bunch of players with near min values, that's gonna happen to most, if not all, of us. most common salary in the league last year was not 20M or any other number, but 250k. it's all part of the process, i'm sorry if you weren't aware of it. i'd love to have been able to explain everything to everyone, but as you can see even experienced members miss some things (myself included)

@hi chi 250k is required increase, but when gm is coming against his cap (soft cap or mle) he can make one last max offer even if it doesn't regularly outbid current high offer as long as his last offers at least matches current high bid (or outbids it by less then required 100k/250k). if he outbids you by any amount or matches your offer, and you are able to outbid him you have to outbid him in order to get that player, but you are allowed to outbid such "max" offer by just 10k in stead of 100k/250k
so he outbids your 6.4M with his max offer of 6.6 (6+6.6+7.2). you are now allowed to outbid him by offering 6.61 average salary
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:03 pm

Next season I think we need to seriously consider changing the auction mechanic. A lot of offline auction leagues bid on players in batches, say 5 to 8 guys, with each batch having a firm 24 or 48 hour bidding period. At the beginnning of free agency we'd compile a list of all the guys up a certain rank, and then the batches are written up by slotting those guys in alternating from the first batch to the last, which spreads top end guys as evenly as possible over the batches. That list is published in full before the auction starts, which allows guys to plan their spending and plan when to be on to bid on the guys they want. Often the bidding is done silently, but that adds a level of complication that we may or may not want to bother with. Even with open bids I think it would be less messy than what we're doing now.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby hi chi » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:20 pm

KalElen wrote:@So-Tex if you hold a high bid on a player, first year amount is taken off your cap space/mle depending on what you are using to bid. so if another player you like comes up and you want to bid on him but are unable due to holding a high bid on 1st player you can't do anything about it (other then try to clear more cap space)
example: you have high bid on splitter of 2m, so you can't bid more then 4m on anybody else (because you are using mle). you can't offer 5m to manu and then wave that bid if you end up wining splitter. only if somebody else outbids you on splitter can you offer up to full mle to manu, wich would leave you penniless and unable to bid on splitter
having just mle to work with is tough, but that's how it is in real nba. even if you see that as a loophole in the rules, there is no way around it. it is part of this league for better or for worse. that's why you need to plan carefully how high you are willing to go and try to figure out what other guys are doing. personally i don't see this as a problem, but as a natural part of free agency, but if you have some suggestions about changing any portion of the rules, we can always talk about it
as for going for bunch of players with near min values, that's gonna happen to most, if not all, of us. most common salary in the league last year was not 20M or any other number, but 250k. it's all part of the process, i'm sorry if you weren't aware of it. i'd love to have been able to explain everything to everyone, but as you can see even experienced members miss some things (myself included)

@hi chi 250k is required increase, but when gm is coming against his cap (soft cap or mle) he can make one last max offer even if it doesn't regularly outbid current high offer as long as his last offers at least matches current high bid (or outbids it by less then required 100k/250k). if he outbids you by any amount or matches your offer, and you are able to outbid him you have to outbid him in order to get that player, but you are allowed to outbid such "max" offer by just 10k in stead of 100k/250k
so he outbids your 6.4M with his max offer of 6.6 (6+6.6+7.2). you are now allowed to outbid him by offering 6.61 average salary


Thanks for the info. I am slowly starting to get the bid process and how it works. ;-D
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