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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:20 am

scully19 wrote:It's doesn't matter what order you go, you basically had no chance at using the MLE. The second you spend any money on a free agent that is purely cap space then you don't have an MLE anymore. If you signed Peja for 3 mill then you could use your MLE, otherwise, no you can't do any sort of workaround.

this is wrong. you are now around 2.5M+ under the cap with mle intact and you have 2 options: use 2.5M of remaining cap space separately form the mle because they can't be combined, which makes your highest possible bid a full mle and doesn't make much sense, but it could in some situations, or you can renounce mle and receive additional 6M of cap space making your high bid 8.5+.
where does keeping mle in this situation make sense? if you are making a trade where you are taking more money then you are sending out (let's say you are taking on additional 3M by trading 12M player for 15M player) those additional 3M will count against your cap and eat up remaining 2.5M+, but will not affect your mle. mle lasts until it's spent or until the end of the season, so you can use whole or part of it to sign a player at any point of the season
spending cap space doesn't automatically mean you forfeited mle. you have to explicitly waive mle to have it stop counting against your cap
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:15 am

I do have another honest question: is it possible to concede a player I nominated so that I may nominate another?

The point would be moot here in my example, since it looks like Rockets will win Tiago Splitter soon, if not already (whom I nominated). But when he first made that last bid, I knew I wasn't going to try and outbid him after that. And as I understand it, I'd have to wait until Splitter was "officially" won, before I could nominate another player.

I'm not saying that by conceding a nominated player, the other manager should automatically win him - other managers who feel they can afford him should be allowed to bid to their heart's content and within the rules of the auction. But since I no longer have interest in the player, couldn't I just come out and post my concession of that player, say in this thread, or somewhere else designated - something similar to when managers waive their MLE?

I understand that there is only a certain amount of FAs allowed in the pool at one time - but I don't think this would lead to a massive overload of FAs, especially when you consider we're only allowed to nominate one at a time (or two if one is your own Bird Rights player).

And quite honestly, if I'm no longer interested in the player, I'd like the opportunity to nominate another, as long as I came out and said "I no longer want to bid on this player". The idea of waiting for an unknown amount of time to nominate another player could get us all pretty wrapped up in a bunch - similar to Jim's sentiments about the Ariza auction:

silentjim wrote:Can someone who can, just nominate Trevor Ariza then? Or any other player? :-B


If it's something we can't agree on now because of Free Agency having already started, maybe it should be something we consider for the future. :-?
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:26 pm

KalElen wrote:
scully19 wrote:It's doesn't matter what order you go, you basically had no chance at using the MLE. The second you spend any money on a free agent that is purely cap space then you don't have an MLE anymore. If you signed Peja for 3 mill then you could use your MLE, otherwise, no you can't do any sort of workaround.

this is wrong. you are now around 2.5M+ under the cap with mle intact and you have 2 options: use 2.5M of remaining cap space separately form the mle because they can't be combined, which makes your highest possible bid a full mle and doesn't make much sense, but it could in some situations, or you can renounce mle and receive additional 6M of cap space making your high bid 8.5+.
where does keeping mle in this situation make sense? if you are making a trade where you are taking more money then you are sending out (let's say you are taking on additional 3M by trading 12M player for 15M player) those additional 3M will count against your cap and eat up remaining 2.5M+, but will not affect your mle. mle lasts until it's spent or until the end of the season, so you can use whole or part of it to sign a player at any point of the season
spending cap space doesn't automatically mean you forfeited mle. you have to explicitly waive mle to have it stop counting against your cap

20. How do exceptions count against the cap? Does being under the cap always mean that a team has room to sign free agents? Do teams ever lose their exceptions?

If a team is below the cap, then their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question numbers 30, 31, 32, 33). A team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away. The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:42 pm

not sure how this has anything to do with our league. if your salary is at 50 and you have additional 6 tied up in mle, pushing you to 56 there is no loophole in using 65-56=9 to bid with. i've pointed out only scenario where keeping mle in spite of being under the cap makes sense and that is no loophole, but something i'm fully aware of and i approve of. never once did anyone mention losing mle after using cap space. i thought that in nba teams under the cap don't even get the mle, so our rule i definitely inspired by nba's, but not based on it

So-Tex, retracting nomination is impossible under the current rules, but we can talk about it for next off-season, if you'd like
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:03 pm

KalElen wrote:So-Tex, retracting nomination is impossible under the current rules, but we can talk about it for next off-season, if you'd like

Yeah, I understood that, so it's all good.

Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about "retraction" - I don't want to pull my bid off the table (even though it was a losing bid). What I'm talking about was "concession" - publicly admitting the fact that I wasn't going to win an auction where I was the one who nominated that player - for the simple reason that then I could nominate another FA and try to win THAT player instead - without having to wait for the first auction to end. Does that make sense?

And I agree, it's something we should be talking about for the next go round. ;-D
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:15 pm

So-Tex wrote:Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about "retraction" - I don't want to pull my bid off the table (even though it was a losing bid). What I'm talking about was "concession" - publicly admitting the fact that I wasn't going to win an auction where I was the one who nominated that player - for the simple reason that then I could nominate another FA and try to win THAT player instead - without having to wait for the first auction to end. Does that make sense?

partially, since you can't retract a winning bid and there is no point in retracting a losing bid, but maybe we could allow gm to publicly renounce his right to further bid on player in question even if he still has enough money to do it, in order to be able to start a new thread. it's definitely worth considering for next year
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:30 pm

KalElen wrote:
So-Tex wrote:Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about "retraction" - I don't want to pull my bid off the table (even though it was a losing bid). What I'm talking about was "concession" - publicly admitting the fact that I wasn't going to win an auction where I was the one who nominated that player - for the simple reason that then I could nominate another FA and try to win THAT player instead - without having to wait for the first auction to end. Does that make sense?

partially, since you can't retract a winning bid and there is no point in retracting a losing bid, but maybe we could allow gm to publicly renounce his right to further bid on player in question even if he still has enough money to do it, in order to be able to start a new thread. it's definitely worth considering for next year

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about!
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby silentjim » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:15 pm

So-Tex wrote:
KalElen wrote:
So-Tex wrote:Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about "retraction" - I don't want to pull my bid off the table (even though it was a losing bid). What I'm talking about was "concession" - publicly admitting the fact that I wasn't going to win an auction where I was the one who nominated that player - for the simple reason that then I could nominate another FA and try to win THAT player instead - without having to wait for the first auction to end. Does that make sense?

partially, since you can't retract a winning bid and there is no point in retracting a losing bid, but maybe we could allow gm to publicly renounce his right to further bid on player in question even if he still has enough money to do it, in order to be able to start a new thread. it's definitely worth considering for next year

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about!


I think we should have more players in the pool, but I don't necessarily agree with this logic. I'm of the mindset that some players I'm going to nominate even though I have no intention of wanting them just to drive up prices and play the manager game. Being outbid on a player doesn't seem like a legit reason in my mind to have the right to nominate another player.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:13 pm

silentjim wrote:Being outbid on a player doesn't seem like a legit reason in my mind to have the right to nominate another player.

Yes, I can see your point there - but it's not necessarily because a manger gets outbid for a player.

Like in my case with Tiago Splitter - it's not that I couldn't keep bidding for him - I could have gone all the way up to 6M if I wanted to. But I made a decision that I was going to stop after a certain amount, and that amount came up.

Again, I'm looking at the potential scenario here - what if two other mangers with plenty of cap space decided to keep the auction going? If each guy came in close to the end of the 24HR deadline, they could make the auction go on for days, maybe even up to a few weeks. And I'd have to sit and wait until I could nominate another player.

Of course, it wouldn't kill me or hinder me in any way - I could still bid my life away on other auctions as long as I had money to burn.

But it may even be beneficial to those managers who don't have the full MLE or cap space to burn. They can't bid over a certain amount anyway because once they hit that limit, that's it. At least this way, they wouldn't have to wait around for me and two other guys who are actively driving up the price on a player day in and day out.

I just think it'd be nice if a nominating manager could concede an auction if he either can't bid, or no longer wishes to bid on it. That way, he could bring another player to the table, thus helping Free Agency move along quicker - or, at least a little quicker.

But again, it's a discussion which is probably better served at the beginning of next off-season. ;-)
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dasein » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:04 pm

hi chi wrote:
dasein wrote:McGee is currently fetching a higher price than Frye? :-S
hmmmm..... ;-7



I feel dirty about how much I just bid on him (and Ariza...overpay). I feel like I have violated myself. I need a shower. !+) :-P %-6 :,-( :~(

I would say the worry about under paying for guys that was brought up earlier is not really a big concern (at least with any guy that I decide I really want) :-C


Actually, Ariza will probably be worth around twice what you paid for him, so no need to feel dirty. In fact, this is another example of undervalue. :-D
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