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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:41 am

Sorry Scully - I'm not trying to rant against the league. I realize there are several of you in agreement, maybe not with everything I bitched about, but most of what's been brought up. And we all agree that this will have to be thought out and discussed from now to the off-season.

I'm just ranting against a specific opinion - one which I happen to think isn't seeing things for what they are.

Like for example, the argument about not having a chance against my 14 man roster...

PFFFFFFFFFF!!!!! :-P

I'm sorry if this sounds juvenile, but that argument is just plain stupid! You're really telling me that you're afraid of my bottom four? Glen Davis, Kleiza, Splitter and McDyess? PLEASE! If we had a DNP-CD cat, I'd be kicking your ass right now! I've got ONE GUY out with injury right now - Yao Ming. And I'm in 15th place. Nobody's afraid of me, even if I had 20 guys on my roster.

Give any manager here the top 7 guys in fantasy right now, and I'd put solid money down that they would be kicking EVERYONE'S ass in this league!

That argument just doesn't float with me in a deep league like this, I'm sorry.

Now I'll shut up and take what's coming. :-X
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby scully19 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:32 am

The argument from the other side is that it is trying to create an overall balanced league. If your team had 5 or 6 guys injured I'm sure you would be thinking this is ridiculous and you have zero chance at anything. Most people would.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:49 am

Yeah, but the difference is I wouldn't be making an issue of that fact. Chalk it up to bad luck that I had 6 guys injured. I would still try the best I could to play through the season.

Like I've said before, Coffee DOES have options. He can make a trade or two, moving some of said injured players for healthy bodies. He could straight out drop them, although in this league is costs you the price of a contract - so even though that's an option, it's a very bad one. Or, he could stand pat and play the season out, knowing full well he'll have next year to look forward to.

The fact of the matter is, I have an almost 100% healthy roster - yet I feel just as you described - that "this is ridiculous and [that I] have zero chance at anything". If I should feel this way ONLY when my squad is injured, then I ask all the rest in the league to trade me your injured players until I have at least six on my roster. Then I can bitch and moan about being stuck in the cellar due to injury.

Otherwise, that argument makes no sense to me. Especially given the current standings.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:35 am

So-Tex, i dropped hump from your roster because i was around and his contract was up. it makes absolutely no difference whether i dropped him several hours before 7*24h has passed, because a) 7 day contract doesn't last 7*24h, but as long as is needed for you to have him on your roster and available to play for you for 7 days b) bidding period is 48h and is designed so that no one can sneak a bid and win out when no other gm is checking in unless all other gms go offline for extended period of time. i dropped him because i didn't want you to breach the rules. it wasn't my duty to do it, but i thought i was helping. and i had no reason to believe that you wouldn't log on soon and do it yourself, but i thought i'd be helpful and drop him anyway, just in case. the hardest thing i had to do in this league (and trust me there have been quite a few hard things) was having to punish dv for unintentional rules breach. i really didn't want that to happen again. if you don't like that kind of help, i won't do it from now on

as for you not having cap space, you had a mle and you spent it. now you can't sign fas and you're whining. well all of it was in the rules. i know rules are handful when you are new to the league, but you are acting now like you were screwed in some way, like rules were not there and now they are. everything was there for you to see and study. i was uber busy most of the summer, yet i answered countless new gm's questions this summer as soon as they arrived. i literally dropped my work in order to reply as soon as i found a question in my inbox. i was available to explain and discuss everything. yet now you are irked that guys who saved their mle are outbidding you. and you want points system that favors bad teams. i told you why i'm against it and all you had to say to that is that it's stupid, but you ignored arguments i presented. so what am i supposed to say to that? in the past i would have fired back, but i'm trying real hard to stay nice and respectful here. ranting about my opinions will get you nowhere, trust me. engage me in an argument (debate is probably a better word here, but you get the point) and we might get somewhere

i never for a second mentioned exemptions for injured players. i talked about il. you are not the only team in this league and when i go with a significant part of my roster playing 0-15 mpg against an average team i will get crushed. your team sucks. i get that. it's not your fault, i get that too. you took the worst team because you wanted a challenge. i applaud that. rules are not perfect, i admit to that and am open to discussing and changing them. but you continue to whine and leave no constructive suggestions. what do you want me to do. i'm not free 24h hours a day to contemplate all possible permutations and ramifications of all possible rule changes and think up new rules. ultimately this league is gonna be as good as its members make it so if you want to improve it, be constructive. we had members being hurt by bad rules and we fixed them. coffieman has every right to complain about a rule he doesn't like period. we don't have to agree with him, but saying that he should shut up because he is winning is not in the spirit of this league. he vented out of frustration, but what are you doing with your post if not venting?
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:31 pm

Can't we just all get along? :-B

First of, I'd like to shout out to Kal. Probably nobody thanked him before, but he did answer lots of questions from me (and i assume others) at the start of the year, and did so in a timely manner. So a big thanks man. ;-D

And ST is obviously getting frustrated because hes a competitive guy who knows his stuff and is feeling like there is no way out. I also have never been in a league where I'm at the ass-end, and it's not easy to take. For me at the moment, this league feels a bit like sitting on the sidelines watching the big kids play and wishing you could grow up quicker and join in.

I can also attest that there is a difference between getting a basic understanding of the rules, which takes time itself, and getting a deeper understanding of the game mechanics and how this effects team-building. For instance, I didn't understand in season FA pickups well enough to appreciate the value of in-season cap space until now. But its part of the learning process. Having said that, when you do start to get this deeper understanding, it can seem a bit hopeless when you have rosters like us new fullas do. But I'm glad that we seem to be hearing support form the league for some sort of exemption to help get these mill stones from around our necks. So in this spirit, I'd like to throw out an idea:

How about at the end of this season, the new guys get to nominate X number of contracts to come off the books? This way nothing gets messed up this year; there isn't suddenly a glut of cap space available. Also, next offseason is going to be an approximation of a reboot anyway, due to the large number of quality free agents available. Maybe we won't be able to get the Durants and LeBrons, but we should still be able to pick up the Noahs and Loves and start to build competitive teams of our own. Personally, I have 2 contracts I'd really like to be rid off (and a couple others I don't like but aren't killers), but X should be a number the league is happy with.

In the meantime, I'll set my rosters, lose a lot of games, and bid my time. Who knows...some of the contenders may wish to trade for depth a little latter ;-)
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby So-Tex » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:03 pm

First off, let me second what dasein said - Kal, you do a thankless job, where you have to not only deal with ranting managers like me, but probably a half-dozen other things that come up at any given moment. You've been a great commissioner so far, and I don't expect anything less from you going forward. Aside from one, maybe two others in the league (I know scully deserves props for putting together the salary spreadsheet on Google docs - anyone else who has contributed to the league, I apologize, sincerely, if I forgot who you are and left you out), Kal pretty much takes care of everything by himself, which I'm certain is a daunting task. And for that, I do thank you for a job well done! ;-D

As far as dropping Hump goes, the main reason why I mentioned that was simply because I had a plan in place to try and give me a chance to win him. My idea was to drop him in the morning (morning here in the States), then a few minutes after, put my minimum bid in. That way, at least I would have the bid in place, and I could take my chances from there. As I said before, at the time, I didn't complain (to you personally or here on the forum) simply because no harm was done - I was still able to put the first bid in for Hump. And I know it wasn't much of a plan, but it's all I had to give me a shot at getting a guy who I SHOULD have put a regular contract in for in the first place (THAT was the wrong move on my part!).

But "what if" you had dropped him from my roster, and bidding started before I could get in? I know it didn't happen that way, but humor me. Sure, I know I don't stand a chance in a bidding war because I spent my MLE and I'm over the soft cap - but if that had happened, I would have had NO SHOT at him whatsoever. Then, I really would have been pissed, because I didn't get a chance to put my initial bid on a player I fully intended to bid on. Again, that didn't happen - but like I've said before, I tend to think out logistics, and the "What if's". And I promise you, if it hasn't happened already, it will in the future - and if/when it does, someone's going to be upset, and it won't just be me.

But you going into my roster to do the drop was not what initially set me off - originally, I didn't even think twice about it - I just made my bid and went on as usual. And even Coffeeman's argument didn't get me all worked up. Like scully said, I made my case, and it seemed a majority of the league was in agreement with me. And even the debate with you about it wasn't the issue - although I'm sure to most it looked that way judging from how harsh I came in on you.

What set me off was the way the whole tie-break thing was handled, specifically with Ben Wallace. I don't know how many in the league have visited that thread yet (I noticed that it's had close to 50 page views so far), but for those of you who haven't seen it yet, visit that thread here.

Now at first glance, it doesn't look like much. But here's what got me:

1. I placed a bid for Ben Wallace at minimum. Both you and scully matched. Ok, cool, a tie-breaker. No problems so far.

2. You post this:
scully will win easily on points if there are no new bids

scully: 13 points (3rd place finish in the regular season)
kalelen: 6 (10 regular season) + 2 (3 c's) = 8 points
So-Tex: 0

Ok, I understand there's a process in place, and until I can go back through it to double-check, I'm pretty much screwed. Upset, yes, ranting, not yet.

3. Then I post this:
So I get ZERO points for being in 15th place? 8-o

:-P :-t :-C

Like I said, at this point, I was upset and making a comment on the outcome of the tie-breaker.

4. You respond with this:
those are the rules. this is not draft, success matters here

** THAT'S what set me off! **

5. So I come back with this:
So if THAT'S the case, then for next season, I vote a REBOOT! Give me a chance to build a team - within the rules - and see if I can't be "successful" enough! }:-)

See my post in the discussion thread regarding my other rants - including other manager's "SUCCESS"!

And the rest has been in the discussion thread ever since.

So, this whole argument was based on one simple catch-22 - how the HELL am I supposed to have success, when I can't even make my team better because of "the rules"?

1. I'm over the soft cap, so I CAN'T make any offer more than .25M.
2. I've spent my MLE, so I CAN'T out bid anyone else if they outbid my .25M offer.
3. I get ZERO POINTS in a tie-breaking scenario because apparently THIS squad wasn't "successful" enough in the past.
4. Judging by how things are going so far, this squad won't be "successful" this year either - YET, I'll be punished for not finishing in 12th place or higher. Sure, I know it's only by 1%, but still, it IS a punishment for simply having a bad team. (We've visited THIS argument before)

So you see, like dasein said - I'm frustrated! I could care less where I'm at in the standings if my players suck - there's nothing I can do about that. I'm the one who took the chance on them, and they aren't panning out. It happens to EVERYONE at one point or another. And I'm OK with that.

But in each league I'm in (even a couple where dasein is the commissioner), I have the option or opportunity to try and make my team better. Rules ARE in place - but even in a league where I only get 2 max moves per week, that's still a fighting chance for me to make that squad better. In THIS league, there could be a coup of 5 or 6 players on the WW who all of a sudden just blow up, and I could put bids in for all of them, and it wouldn't matter because unless everyone else just IGNORES those bids, I won't win those players in ANY scenario, including a tie-breaker!

So the only option left to me is through trades. But what, a manager is going to give me a really fantastic WW pickup for my bench-warming scrub, simply because the "numbers" add up? I know I wouldn't, and I'm in 15th place! Right now, the best players on my squad are Deron Williams, Jason Terry, Danial Gibson, and maybe Nocioni and Yao Ming (if he can stay healthy) - believe me, that's not saying much. So trading any of those guys for talent back isn't going to make my squad better. I'll be pretty much stuck in the same boat, but with different players. And I can't gut my roster and trade all my good players away cause it will be perceived as "tanking" or "mailing in the season". So what am I to do? Like I said before, in Coffeeman's case, he HAS options. He can trade one or two of his injured players for some kind of value in order to stay competitive. It won't change the fact that he's still winning. Hell, it'll probably make him that much better!

But even if I hadn't picked the worse squad possible to take on (because I still DO relish the challenge), I'd still feel shackled due to the fact that things are so geared to teams staying competitive, yet nothing is geared to helping the bad teams get better. They just simply stay bad. So where's the fun in that?

And contrary to popular belief, I AM trying to think up some new ways of addressing ALL these issues. It's not just bitch and moan and wait for someone else to do the hard work and come up with an idea. What I can tell you right now is that most of those ideas will probably have to include things like last place teams getting the best chance at top draft picks. 8-o Or teams with the current worst in-season records in bidding tie-breakers get a better chance of winning the player. :-* Or ALL teams, not just the bad ones, should be allowed to drop at least ONE bad contract off their books to free up cap space (nice idea, D, I for one like it!).

I think we're reaching a point in time where we now have to consider how to make THIS league better and more competitive - NOT how can we make THIS league MORE LIKE the real NBA. I do like the structure that's in place. We just need to keep hammering out the process.

And don't worry - I'll bring my ideas to the table in due time. But like I said, some of them may require a rethinking of current attitudes towards things like "tanking" or "mailing in the season". Cause the bottom line is, I've got nothing to play for right now - I can only HOPE that my team gets better as time goes on. I can only HOPE it does well enough to win and get me out of the cellar. I can only HOPE that I can speculate on a few FAs, weeks before they go off (which in a deep league like this, is almost impossible).

So that's where I'm at. :-/

Again, I apologize to the league, and to you Kal, if I sounded like a ranting whiner - that's definitely NOT like me. Rest assured, I'll pay my dues and take my lumps as they come, and I'll have no one to blame but myself for what my squad does, or doesn't, do this season. But I WILL bring up some ideas as I think them through, and we'll go forward from there. ;-)
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby KalElen » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:02 am

no prob, water under the bridge. btw guys with admin/mode privileges helped with managing the league too and definitely deserve our collective gratitude, as does anyone who enters a discussion about rules and helps make the league better

there are 2 things that i'd like to address here
1st is hump issue. somebody else putting in min bid doesn't mean you cant match and force a tiebreak. in that case it doesn't matter who started the thread. team with cap space or mle would still have to outbid you. you lose nothing by not starting the thread because you're either going to be able to match min bid, or initial bid will be higher then min and you will be out of the bidding

2nd, i pushed hard for anti-tanking lottery odds and i stand by my opinion, but that doesn't mean that i won't consider any changes under any circumstances. we can talk about that further. the way for bad teams to get good for me is a classical rebuild: get under the cap (new alan houston rule should help there) in order to win some auctions and through draft (anti-tanking weight distribution hurts here, so that might have to be revised). still i think that success should matter as a tie breaker. pacers, wolves etc. have to overpay in order to land good fas and we are mimicking that. of course we don't have to do it that way, but i think we should. that is also open for debate though
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby hi chi » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:25 pm

Being one of the new guys taking over the team and being a super competitive guy, I feel what ST is saying. It sucks getting your butt handed to you. However, I think it is important to keep things in perspective. This is a long term league and we are looking at short term things here. Like the NBA, some teams are able to have a quick fix to get themselves in a position to compete (a trade, FA signing), while some teams need to look at long-term rebuilding (building through draft picks, cap space, smart signings). This is just a reality...a frusterating one, but a realisitic one. I do like the idea of allowing the new guys to drop X number of bad contracts. I don't think it should be open to some teams had a choice on the bad contracts they signed guys to, new guys did not. That being said I would be ok with nothing in place to help us get competitive. Through good management over time teams will get bad and teams will get good. It is realistic that teams that sucks will take a year or two (maybe more) to get themselves fixed. There is no easy fix and that is ok.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:37 pm

In my experience while these conversations can get a little heated they also promote thought and discussion and often galvanise future rule changes. I'll throw my 2c in.

I say we leave the FA rules in place and overhaul the lottery odds, mimic the NBA odds for the 8 lotto teams. So long as GM's are still setting their rosters I don't think we need to worry about tanking hardly at all. Plus, the better teams are already getting rewarded with their success through the season in free agency, I think we need the lottery on the other side of the coin to help out the teams that have crashed.

Regarding the FA rules, as I said above I think that should stay the same. Or perhaps use the odds for older players only, vet types playoff teams like to load up with as opposed to upside types that are more likely to show up on a young non-playoff team.

Not sure about the Allan Houston suggestion, but only because I've been flatout and haven't had a chance to take another look at the league's contracts. I'd say new GM's should be able to dump 1 contract at the end of the season if they inherited it.

Lastly, with regard to the IL, I'd have to think about it, I'm more used to playing weekly leagues myself and still getting used to the daily rosters, and I'd want to consider the pros and cons before fully endorsing it.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:46 am

I'm not a huge fan of the points system we're currently using, but I think we're stuck with it at least until the season ends. I like the basic idea, but I'm not sure about how the thing is weighted. I think it rewards 'good' teams more than it should relative to the benefits of 'potential available playing time' that should also be a big factor. Last season I suggested using BBM values for the points system, and I still think it would work (or something like that). I'm not at all adverse to using the combined BBM values of players at the FA's position to somehow show playing time availability (the better the players at position, the less 'points' the team gets ect).

That's an idea for next offseason though. In general though, I do agree that the system as it stands seems wonky and we should seriously consider some alternatives for next year. As far as the lottery goes, I agree 100%, lets give the bad teams an NBA level chance of landing a top pick. ;-D
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