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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:10 am

I was never counting on your vote Fenriss.

I was however counting on you to rewrite the rules, like you said you would.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:51 am

Markos wrote:I was never counting on your vote Fenriss.

I was however counting on you to rewrite the rules, like you said you would.

I have looked at them, and I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about ways to improve them. Some of those suggestions even made their way onto threads in this very forum. What I don't have is time to rewrite them from the ground up. I'd settle for a legitimate discussion of the proposals I've already made, which, like yours, are based on well established salary cap league process used elsewhere.

All I've really done is suggest a move back to how I wanted this league to look when it started. Kal never liked blind waiver bidding so it didn't happen. If people don't like blind waivers now it still won't happen, which is fine with me, so long as we settle on something else. The main point is that the league is here for the guys who play in it, not one or two guys who want it to look a certain way or they'll take their ball and go home.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:04 am

Fenris-77 wrote:The main point is that the league is here for the guys who play in it, not one or two guys who want it to look a certain way or they'll take their ball and go home.


;-D

Fenris-77 wrote:That said, I don't think I'm interested in playing a league that uses actual salaries. That's not what I'm looking for in a salary cap league.

Fenris-77 wrote:I vote no reboot. No offense, but I'm not interested in having this league remade in your image.


:-t
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:15 am

Yup, that's my vote. On the other hand, I'm not trying to pressure anyone into anything by threatening to leave if they don't do what I want. ;-D

I've always been very up front about bowing to the will of the majority when it come to league changes. If the guys here want to reboot, or use your system, or whatever, then I'll go along. I'll have my say first about what I'd like, but I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I'm not even really trying to be unfriendly, I just don't think your approach here is that helpful. Most of the guys seemed to be fine just tweeking the current system, at least when they've actually been here to comment, so I've mostly confined my ideas to that sort of thing. If we were going to go reboot I'll go along, and I wouldn't have any issue with you as commish, I'm just not interested in using actual player salaries for the league, especially with a new CBA coming down.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:06 am

Actually, in recent weeks most of the guys, as in RedHopeful, theRobsays, SoTex and myself have all indicated we'd rather take the nuclear option and reboot than see the league fold. I'd imagine that's more than half of the guys who have been active here over the last month or two, and I'd think the closer we edge to the season opener the more guys will agree. There's a reason for that, the league is on life support without Kal or an effective committee to replace him. Aside Scully's efforts on the draft rules thread and the spreadsheet, all we've done is posted in here about what we should be doing, then sat around waiting for someone else to blink first.

Check the old reboot vote thread, guys were pretty clear about giving the new rules a chance before resorting to a reboot. If we aren't going ahead with the tweaks, or at least most of them, the reboot option is back on the table, and November 23rd is D-day. If noone has stood up by then and shown they are serious about bringing in the changes and running this league I'll propose a whole new system, knowing I still have time to make it work.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dasein » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:00 am

I'm not sure what makes Nov 23rd D-day, when there is still a real possibility that there will be no season at all. If there is to be a deadline, it will come out of the CBA negotiations. Anything else is arbitrary.

I know we're all frustrated with the lack of progress in the real world, but is our league really in that bad a shape? 1 owner to replace and 2 or 3 rules to tweak. There will be a month between a CBA agreement and a tip off. Is that not enough time to do everything we need to do?
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Markos » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:39 pm

A month is plenty, in fact Im assuming the 23rd will leave us only 3 full weeks. It's enough time to either reboot or run with the current system, assuming someone is ready to commish by then.

And I am assuming we will know in the next few days if the season starts Dec 15th. If not I doubt we have a season at all, in which case noone not have to step up, at least not for a while.

Likewise I'll not have to bother if yourself, Fenriss, or anyone else decides to step up before the 23rd and actually gets things happening. This is my preferred outcome, I'd rather not commish at all, but if I do it'll be on my terms.

We can dismiss the rules as tweaks but the reality is in the early preseason it was considered an overhaul, and there will invariably be a few GMs that wont be back, regardless of their stated intent back in April. If you think we can start the season Dec 15th but still get little done before the end of this month I don't share your optimism, which is why, if necessary, I'll make my proposal on the 23rd. That would give me 3 weekends, any less and I don't think I'd bother.

Dont lets kid ourselves, there is plenty to do, we need a rollcall, recruit, lottery, draft, free agency, set up yahoo, edit googledocs, and check salaries as well as add the changes to the rules. That will need 3 weeks to be done well, Kal busted his ass running this league and to think we can get it all sorted with an as yet inneffective committee over the final 10 or so days is just plain wrong.

The option for someone to pick up the ball and run with it is still there, and again that would be my preference too, but something has to change in the next ten days for me to not think it's time to make a push.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby silentjim » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:43 pm

I still think we should wait to make any decisions until we know more from the current talks right now. No one is interested in doing a ton of work for nothing, myself included.

I personally think there are two options. One, a season takes place in part and we tweak our current rules and rosters so that we can play. And two, there is no season and we re-vamp our rules from before and do a reboot. Though I like that Markos has stepped up and offered an alternative, I don't think it's 100% what we were initially looking to do, so I'm for making what we have work.
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby dasein » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:13 pm

silentjim wrote:I still think we should wait to make any decisions until we know more from the current talks right now. No one is interested in doing a ton of work for nothing, myself included.

I personally think there are two options. One, a season takes place in part and we tweak our current rules and rosters so that we can play. And two, there is no season and we re-vamp our rules from before and do a reboot. Though I like that Markos has stepped up and offered an alternative, I don't think it's 100% what we were initially looking to do, so I'm for making what we have work.

;-D

We do the draft lottery on the 17th and PM the results to the league which will act as a role call. This role call will tell us how many managers need to be replaced. The next steps would be finding replacement managers and holding the rookie draft.

The free agent auction doesn't make sense until the NBA has signed its own free agents anyway. Likewise there is little point deciding on and ratifying rule changes (with the work that goes with it) unless we know there will be a season. Having said that, I'll endever to make a summary of the rules to be changed, with the changes that have been proposed, this weekend so that we'll have a springboard.

If a season or two are lost, then a reset makes sense. Lets hope sense finally prevails and it doesn't come to that. :-/
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Re: 2010/11 season discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:29 pm

If there's no season them I'll happily participate in a reboot. Since it seems like the union is going ahead with decertification we should have lots of time to figure out what we want to do.

Markos, don't take this personally, but I really don't like your approach here. Most guys have been pretty good about trying to work together on this league and I, personally, don't feel compelled to do anything because you've decided that the 23rd is your personal D-Day. Go ahead and suggest changes to the league if you like, but I see no reason you couldn't just take all that energy and help get the rules set we have to where everyone's happy, rather than making ultimatums. If you want total control and specific set of rules you could just as easily just go start another league. That said...

As I mentioned before, I'll go along with the majority decision on the rules set. If everyone likes your suggestion then so be it. ;-D Why not just put it to the question now and save some time? Post the rules in their own thread and maybe we can drum up some discussion about the facets people like and dislike. Just because there's one or two things I don't like about them doesn't mean we can't rationally discuss the pros and cons. Plus, if everyone who's on seems to like them then we'd have a head start on getting them in place.
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