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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby KalElen » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:43 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:You're the one who said teams can always match for their own FAs, so you tell us. As a general idea it's part of NBA contract and salary, so why wouldn't it appear in some form or another?

i don't remember saying that

Fenris-77 wrote:And the advantage isn't minuscule. Look at the number of quality players on min offers this year and try to say that with a straight face. There's too many good guys in that category for the advantage not to matter a great deal. Besides the fact that it doesn't make any sense. :-D

that only happened in year one. now we all know better

Fenris-77 wrote:What you missing here is that no one seems to like the very idea that a team's cap situation should be the determining factor in landing a player, whether for the min, or the MLE, or whatever. It's not about just about simplicity. I'd rather live with FCFS, even though that has it's own attendant set of issues. My actual preference is to get a tie breaking mechanism in place that makes sense, both as a game mechanic and as a fantasy-based reflection of the real NBA. Basing it on cap does neither IMO. Points is no more or less arbitrary, but does have the value of being a better refection of how a FA would actually pick a team - i.e. it reflects how good the team is and how much paying time he's going to get. It also has the ability to be as detailed and nuanced as we'd like (or as simple as we like for that matter).


there is no simple way to do that. it all depends on players character,age etc. hedo is gonna go after the money, sheed after the ring, ariza tever after a larger role, artest went to la god knows why. you can never put all of that into a system and not make a huge headache out of it. whatever you do to the points system, it's gonna suck. and i actually enjoyed coming up with it. i think it is very elegant solution,compared to alternatives (randomizing of any kind), but it shouldn't be used when there is no need for it, because it's arbitrary and flawed

still it's far better then any kind of fcfs solution
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby Fenris-77 » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:38 pm

And FCFS is better than basing anything on cap status. :D

Which is why I decided early to talk about the points, both FCFS and the cap answers have dedicated haters. I don't see any reason why a simple points system should be anything besides fair when we have all season to get it written and cleaned up. I'd agree it would need to be as stream-lined and GM friendly as possible, but that's not an impossible goal.

And yeah, it could be simple,e specially as regards the points vs explanation part. A general set of guidleines thatpush FAs in one direction or the other needn't anything like as complicated as you imply. It needs make sense in a generalized sort of way (as I suggested above) but not needlessly complicted (i.e. no points for player age, craziness, or having Dan Fegan as an agent)
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby ardilla » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:01 pm

You forced a roll call and asked for opinions. I respond and you call my ideas pointless, flawed and inelegant, terms which are insulting to me but vague concerning how FCFS would impact the league. Good conversation.
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby ardilla » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:38 pm

I am not married to any idea; there are problems with each. Here is a novel I wrote about the issue:

I would like to point out that with any bid other than the minimum or maximum, FCFS is already in effect. If you believe we are avoiding FCFS, you are mistaken. To avoid FCFS we would have to allow matching on every bid, which would be tedious. So the questions are: do we allow FCFS to decide in the case of minimum or maximum bids, or do we allow some sort of matching and a tie-breaker? If allowed, what sort of matching and tie-breaker?

Ubiquitous FCFS is the simplest solution but it would lead to an increased advantage being given to managers for being on the internet. I am sure several object to this.

One proposal, forcing teams with space to out-bid capped teams, does nothing to solve the situation occurring when multiple capped teams bid on a minimum player, nor when several teams offer a maximum contract. It gives an advantage to capped teams which many managers in this league have objected to in previous threads. I disagree with that proposal for these reasons.

The above requires a tie-breaker anyways, so perhaps a simpler solution is to go with a point system. We would allow matching at min and max (or when it is all you have left) and the points would decide.

With a point system, I worry about balance. Any point systems I can think of right now would lead to certain teams always beating other teams during a single off-season. If Team A has more points than Team B according to an arbitrary point system, Team A will win every minimum or maximum FA against Team B throughout the off-season. This seems excessive; both teams should have a chance to win. Eliminating this with a point system will be complicated. This is why I introduced randomization. Sometimes the only fair way to make a decision among equally worthy options is to roll the dice.

Giving some small advantage to home teams is another issue. As of now I support allowing them to match any contract and win (you could still out-bid them) except for minimum and maximum, which are decided another way. Or perhaps this is already solved in the rules somewhere.
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby KalElen » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:22 am

ardilla wrote:You forced a roll call and asked for opinions. I respond and you call my ideas pointless, flawed and inelegant, terms which are insulting to me but vague concerning how FCFS would impact the league. Good conversation.

i said there will be roll calls before season started. i will continue to run them throughout the season. democracy rules only when people are willing to participate. i made it clear i want everybody to be active throughout the season. i didn't force anybody to post opinions on the rules. roll call and discussion are independent from each other. lack of discussion did cause me to post 1st roll call at this point, but that's it
every rule that i find pointless, flawed and inelegant i will call so in public. you are free to do the same with mine if that's the way you feel about them. i'm not out to get you, but if i hate your ideas i will speak up. whenever i liked your ideas i said so in public. if you are easily offended, don't post your opinions, i did not force you to do so
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Re: roll call

Postby KalElen » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:30 am

so what happens now? 6 responses in 48h. some guys probably missed the thread in all the clatter, but i doubt 10 people were here and just missed it. to say that i'm disappointed doesn't even begin to describe it...
this was the last roll call. i'm gonna stop wasting my time here. be active or don't. i don't care...
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby ardilla » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:43 am

If we are just going to be insulting and not make any sort of point about the issue at hand:

You are a power-hungry dictator sort of commissioner. It is annoying.

It is ok to believe something is pointless or inelegant. Perhaps you could explain what is wrong by pointing to the ways it impacts the league. You are basically saying, "it sucks." Doesn't make anything clear but your dislike for any ideas but your own.
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby KalElen » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:49 am

ardilla wrote:If we are just going to be insulting and not make any sort of point about the issue at hand:

You are a power-hungry dictator sort of commissioner. It is annoying.

It is ok to believe something is pointless or inelegant. Perhaps you could explain what is wrong by pointing to the ways it impacts the league. You are basically saying, "it sucks." Doesn't make anything clear but your dislike for any ideas but your own.

i wrote enough about fcfs i don't want to repeat myself yet again
power hungry? whatever...
from now on i f
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby KalElen » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:52 am

ollow current rules. no votes, no roll calls. i don't care
i'll let somebody else waste his time with trying to improve it or make people actually play the league
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Re: ***min offers rule***

Postby ardilla » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:53 am

I nominate Fenris.
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