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let's try again

Postby KalElen » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:01 pm

as i said i'm not gonna try to make any more tweaks to the league rules, but there are some major issues that need to be resolved, because they will have huge impact on next summer's free agency. anybody who has an opinion is encouraged to post it and if a discussion breaks out, don't feel discouraged. we are trying to get as many different opinions as possible and find the best solutions. after the discussion is over we will have a vote.
issues:
1. expansion
2. cap holds
3. mle

here's how 2. and 3. are done in the nba:

2. Cap holds matter. Dwyane Wade opting out of his contract does not mean Miami can just spend up to the cap amount (whatever it ends up at) and then re-sign him to put the team over the limit. As he is on a max contract now, his cap hold will have a substantial effect on the money Miami can offer within the confines of the cap. Of course, should a big ticket free agent leave or sign for less money, this hold would be eliminated from his original team's books accordingly, but that’s unlikely for the max-level players in the short run.

3. The Mid-Level Exception and other cap holds do not go on top of cap space- they take it away. One of my biggest criticisms of the 2K basketball series (excellent as it is) is that they have never gotten the free agency rules correct. The MLE is just that- an exception. That means it allows teams over the cap to still spend that money, but teams under the cap have to renounce it should they want to use that cap space on free agents. One particularly notable example of this was Rashard Lewis, where Orlando had to renounce their exceptions to fit his sizable salary on their ledgers, though that was complicated a little further by it being a trade. As such, any team that maxes out their cap space cannot just toss on a Mid-Level exception on top. They can absolutely add minimum salary guys and give bigger contracts to players they have Bird Rights on, but they do not have the MLE to work with on top of the cap.
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Re: let's try again

Postby KalElen » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:05 pm

i'm still in favor of immediate expansion, providing we can find quality gms (protection details to be worked out, based on frenis' simulation of the expansion draft), and would like to mimic nba rules regarding cap holds and mle (i thinik that nba's solution is identical to what fernis suggested earlier). i never gave cap holds much thought, considering them unnecessary, but i think that text quoted above explains why they are quite necessary
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Re: let's try again

Postby silentjim » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Can't you renounce someone's rights in regards to number 2 as well?
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Re: let's try again

Postby KalElen » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:19 pm

silentjim wrote:Can't you renounce someone's rights in regards to number 2 as well?

you can
but in that case you can't exercise bird rights on that player. bird rights allow you to go over the cap when resigning him and to offer him higher yearly increases, should you choose to do so. cap holds prevent someone from using cap space to sign other team's fa and then using bird rights on his own fa and thus going over the cap.
example: i clear 25M after year 2 (someone's cp3 and my durant both come off books at that time). then i sign cp3 to 20M (assuming that i beat out other max offers based on points system). if there are no cap holds i can now sign durant to 20M and have total salary at 80M. with cap holds i can't sign cp3 until i renounce durant whose hold on my cap is 20M. now if i land cp3, i'm left with just 5M, so i can't get durant as well. at least that's the way i understand it
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Re: let's try again

Postby silentjim » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:21 pm

KalElen wrote:
silentjim wrote:Can't you renounce someone's rights in regards to number 2 as well?

you can
but in that case you can't exercise bird rights on that player. bird rights allow you to go over the cap when resigning him and to offer him higher yearly increases, should you choose to do so. cap holds prevent someone from using cap space to sign other team's fa and then using bird rights on his own fa and thus going over the cap.
example: i clear 25M after year 2 (someone's cp3 and my durant both come off books at that time). then i sign cp3 to 20M (assuming that i beat out other max offers based on points system). if there are no cap holds i can now sign durant to 20M and have total salary at 80M. with cap holds i can't sign cp3 until i renounce durant whose hold on my cap is 20M. now if i land cp3, i'm left with just 5M, so i can't get durant as well. at least that's the way i understand it


Me too. It's basically a loop hole, which is why there are cap holds.
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Re: let's try again

Postby RedHopeful » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:42 pm

During the rules formulation/draft, I wasn't in favor of expansion after 1 year. Up to this point, I still see no reason to change my mind. 1 GM has had to be replaced. I've got a strong feeling that we'd be lucky to have the rest of the group stick it out until the start of next season too.

Also, it can't be discounted that most of our players will still be under contract. We're still getting the feel and direction of our own teams. It would seem to make sense to get all our ducks in order first. Besides, after year 2, a lot of players will hit the free agent pool.
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Re: let's try again

Postby Fenris-77 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:43 pm

I think the easiest way to work the cap holds (and I do think we should use them) is to use the last year's salary as the hold amount. That's not what the NBA does, but it is way easier. For mon contracts we might want to add a caveat that the minimum cap hold is, say, 500K, for any player who made 500K or less. That's simpler too, an we need al the simple we can get.

If we're going to use cap holds then I think we need to use the MLE. IN the interests of (again) simplicity I think a flat figure of 6M works.

The matter of differential allowed raises is sticky, and I'm not sure it's worth the extra work. Allowing everyone a flat 10% raise amount on all contracts is easy. On the other hand, if we allow some form of Bird RIghts that included a provision for, say, 12% raises instead, it would give the home team a slight advantage which isn't a bad thing. Exactly how to work a simple and effective mechanic for Bord Rights is something I'll have to think about, since BR are based on years of service, which is something we don't have to work with here. What would people think about allowing each team to nominate a certain number of players now, say 2 or 3 maybe, as Bird free agents? To simulate a squad with history. Any player with a contact of 3 years or longer counting this season would get that anyway, so it's to add some limited protection for the shorter contracts.

Rookies probably need to have a version of Restricted free agency too, at least for 1st round picks. Again, there's the issue of simulating history for the current rosters. We could say that any free agents this season and next season (and maybe the season after that) who were drafted in the 1st round of the actual NBA draft automatically count as RFAs in our league. After 2 or 3 fantasy seasons we should be able to use the fantasy rookies as they were drafted in the league.

That assumes we're having a seperate rookie draft. I think we really should. If we're going to we need some guidelines for that too. A rookie scale, ect. I don't recall where everyone else was on that idea.

That's what I have for now, but I'm sure I'll think of something else.
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Re: let's try again

Postby TheRobSays » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:26 pm

Here are my 2 cents:

1. I am not in favour of expansion after Year 1. I also think that if we expand then we need to reduce the rosters, they are already very thin at 14 fantasy players. Check the waiver wire and see how decent a team could be put together. No one wants guys on a fantasy team that simply sit and rot.

2. I love the idea of a home team having the advantge as far as max salary goes. I also think that the Year 1 max salary should be 20M but you should be able to give raised each year up to the max % for up to a 5 year contract. I also think the idea of a cap hold is a must.

3. I think we need MLE if we are going to have cap holds.
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Re: let's try again

Postby KalElen » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:31 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:I think the easiest way to work the cap holds (and I do think we should use them) is to use the last year's salary as the hold amount. That's not what the NBA does, but it is way easier. For mon contracts we might want to add a caveat that the minimum cap hold is, say, 500K, for any player who made 500K or less. That's simpler too, an we need al the simple we can get.

agreed. in nba amount is calculated based on last year of contract, but similar to that value, so for simplicity sake we should do it this way

Fenris-77 wrote:If we're going to use cap holds then I think we need to use the MLE. IN the interests of (again) simplicity I think a flat figure of 6M works.

this is in the current version of rules

Fenris-77 wrote:The matter of differential allowed raises is sticky, and I'm not sure it's worth the extra work. Allowing everyone a flat 10% raise amount on all contracts is easy. On the other hand, if we allow some form of Bird RIghts that included a provision for, say, 12% raises instead, it would give the home team a slight advantage which isn't a bad thing. Exactly how to work a simple and effective mechanic for Bord Rights is something I'll have to think about, since BR are based on years of service, which is something we don't have to work with here. What would people think about allowing each team to nominate a certain number of players now, say 2 or 3 maybe, as Bird free agents? To simulate a squad with history. Any player with a contact of 3 years or longer counting this season would get that anyway, so it's to add some limited protection for the shorter contracts.

higher % increases give home team some advantage (with same cap room for starting salary, home team can offer higher total), but we can agree to eliminate it. i don't feel to strongly either way. i was thinking that all players get bird rights, but we can discuss this further as well.

Fenris-77 wrote:Rookies probably need to have a version of Restricted free agency too, at least for 1st round picks. Again, there's the issue of simulating history for the current rosters. We could say that any free agents this season and next season (and maybe the season after that) who were drafted in the 1st round of the actual NBA draft automatically count as RFAs in our league. After 2 or 3 fantasy seasons we should be able to use the fantasy rookies as they were drafted in the league.

That assumes we're having a seperate rookie draft. I think we really should. If we're going to we need some guidelines for that too. A rookie scale, ect. I don't recall where everyone else was on that idea.


separate rookie draft and rookie scale are in the current version of rules. i was thinking we hold off on rfa until summer 2011 (next year 2nd rounders become rfas after year one of their rookie contracts. i don't like the idea of changing structure of contracts retroactively for 2009 and 2008 classes. people bid on them and should be allowed to keep them for the duration of those contracts. maybe we should have included rfa in their contracts last summer when we initially bid on them, but theme of that auction was simplicity, so i passed on that option at the time
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Re: let's try again

Postby Fenris-77 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:07 pm

I wasn't suggesting that we alter the existing contracts of rookies to make the last current year of their deal an RFA year. I was thinking that after the last year of their contract they'd be FAs but the owning team would have the right to match offered contracts.
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