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2010-2011 Season Stuff

Moderators: silentjim, RedHopeful, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Blind Waiver System - Proposals Welcome

Postby RedHopeful » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:48 pm

silentjim wrote:Again we're talking about ties in a blind waiver system, which I don't think will be that likely. I'd like to keep it semi-uncomplicated and I feel like its moving back toward the too involved process.

Agreed. Gonna give the tie breaker more thought this weekend and will try to weigh in with another approach.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:30 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:No offense, but I effing hate weekly lineups. :-t My vote is no, but if that's what the league wants then sure.

The league can do auctions and all that other jazz as weekly events without any needs for lineups to be a weekly deal too, so I don't really buy that line of reasoning. It is less work, that's true, but that's not my primary concern. I actually enjoy managing my team, as crazy as that sounds. :-D

If we went weekly then I'd support a change to 7 day contracts and I'd be ok with making the second 7 day a team choice thing, but I'd also be happy to deep six the whole idea, since it only make a small amount of difference unless you're a team who's right up on the cap. For example, I had cap space and didn't hand out a single 7 day last year, I just grabbed 'em and dumped 'em as needed since the cap hit is only that year anyway.

We do need an actual tie break that works outside a once-only format. Otherwise what happens when two teams tie and they've both used their one-off tie break?


I agree, I vote no as well.

I don't really get the Rudy Gay injury argument. You would be playing a man down in a weekly format as well....he would be on your bench in a daily lineup just as he would in a weekly lineup format.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby scully19 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:10 am

The injury argument is that you can't actually replace an injured player and play a man down in weekly lineups because he is on not playing. Other people get subbed in, but you miss the games from Rudy So if 10 guys on the team all play 3 games each, you will get 30 games played if everyone is healthy (or close to it) and 27 if you have a player injured (or close to it). In a weekly format, if a player is out for an extended period of time then no games are actually missed because someone else is playing in his position. So when you put Rudy (or whoever) on the bench and replace him with someone else whose games were getting counted before. So if 7 guys are in the active lineup then you have 21 games played a week, and if a player is injured you still have 21 games played a week.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Markos » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:02 am

Exactly, daily lineups are fools gold for injury relief.

Think about in. In a weekly lineup you lock your guys in for the week at these positions

PG, G, SG, SF, F, PF, C, C, U, U, B, B, B, B

Assume Rudy Gay is your PF and he gets hurt on Tuesday's game, and is out for a month. You lose his games on Thursday and Saturday. But you also set your roster for the following 3 week's with ie. Tony Allen at the SF spot instead, and Gay on the bench. Total games missed = 2

In a daily lineup you have the same positions

PG, G, SG, SF, F, PF, C, C, U, U, B, B, B, B

You already had Tony Allen locked in as a utility for Thursday's game as only 6 of your guys are playing that day, so you still lose a game there, but on Saturday you elevate him off the bench for Gay and miss 1 game for that week. However, over the following 3 weeks Memphis play 11 times but you can only elevate Tony Allen off the bench 4 times, usually the weekend games, the rest of the time you already had him and anyone else playing that day, locked in. Total games missed = 8.

2 < 8, in any format.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Fenris-77 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:27 am

First off, 2 missed player games can be the difference on a week, so it's not negligible, and second, the number of player games from starters really deviates from week to week, so having access to you bench actually serves to equalizes games played in a lot of weeks.

Beyond that we have teams in the league who are built for depth and that depth is useful because of the daily subs. Weekly subs changes that dramatically and makes the bench, plus canny late auction pickups, way less useful. It also pumps the importance of top 50 players. Neither outcome looks good to me. Anyway, the ramifications here are about far more than just injury relief.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Markos » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:04 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:First off, 2 missed player games can be the difference on a week, so it's not negligible, and second, the number of player games from starters really deviates from week to week, so having access to you bench actually serves to equalizes games played in a lot of weeks.

Beyond that we have teams in the league who are built for depth and that depth is useful because of the daily subs. Weekly subs changes that dramatically and makes the bench, plus canny late auction pickups, way less useful. It also pumps the importance of top 50 players. Neither outcome looks good to me. Anyway, the ramifications here are about far more than just injury relief.


I never said 2 missed player games was negligible, but simply 8 missed games over a month in the daily format is far more brutal.

The example I used was Gay out for merely 1 month. Barring a trade, where you'd likely get burned, a full season injury will cost you about 50 games played. I'd rather have a key injury derail 1 matchup, not my entire season. I had Greg Oden and Rudy Gay on my lineup last season so I know what I'm talking about.

And if you think a bit of depth or canny FA pickups are "way less useful" in the weekly format, I can only say I think you're gravely mistaken.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Fenris-77 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Markos wrote:And if you think a bit of depth or canny FA pickups are "way less useful" in the weekly format, I can only say I think you're gravely mistaken.

And if you think they're not way more useful in a daily sub league then it's you, not me, who's gravely mistaken. You can't argue that weekly subs don't make a league less competitive and don't reduce the importance of the bench and late draft because that's exactly what they do. It's fine that you want to play that way, everyone has they're own tastes, but we need to be honest about the ramifications.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Markos » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:55 am

No, I totally disagree.

Fact is bench guys in the daily format are near useless in covering for injuries. One extra game on the weekend from Tony Allen doesn't nearly make up for 3 less games from Rudy Gay through the week. Can't refute it. No way around it.

Is the bench as important in weekly format as in daily? Not if all your guys stay healthy. But because injuries are inevitable, and most teams will occasionally carry multiple injuries into a few matchups, it's a heck of a lot more useful in the sense it actually comes into play, as opposed to the current format where we simply activate as many guys in a given night as we can. In "competitive" weekly leagues like the ones I play in GM's rotate your bench guys in and out of the lineup depending upon the number of games played each each week, or just on player form or matchup considerations, so it's not limited to an injury reserve either. Those leagues are as if not more competitive than any daily league I've ever played in.

Incidentally last season late draft picks were virtually worthless, stashing some project on your bench was akin to playing a player short. With the weekly format you can stash a guy or two and it doesn't bite you in the ass each and every week.

So yes, lets start being honest about the ramifications. ;-D
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:54 am

Who's talking just about injury coverage? :-? That's not the core issue here, so perhaps we want to reframe the topic a little bit. I'll address it, but it's not what makes or breaks weekly subs as an idea. You say one extra games from Tony Allen doesn't make up for missing three games from Rudy Gay, and you'd be right, but since that's just a situation you made up out of thin air I'm not sure how much it matters that you're right. Beyond that, That one game from Tony Allen is far better than no games at all, and you little pastiche could easily have Gay injured on Monday, at which point we're talking about three games from Allen, not just one (or whatever). My example is like yours though - I made it up, so I can make it look better than average if I want.

Really, what we're talking about is whether or not you get to use your bench on a regular basis in a regular week, not in the case of injury. Bench guys frequently don't get to play all their games becuase of limited active roster slots, but lets say, for the sake of argument, that they play about 1.5 games a week versus a starters 3 games (in daily sub league). So my bench gives me something like 6 or 7 player games a week. A move to weekly subs means I don't get those 6 or 7 games out of my bench, which in turn makes my bench far less important to the outcome of the league, and also means that managing the end of my bech with waiver adds also becomes far less important. Obviously there are still great waiver adds in either format, and in the case of injury the imprtaqnce of bench quality goes up, but I'm just talking about day to day play, which makes up most of the league.

Oh, just to get the percentrages out there, if we assume an average week is three games, then the bench accounts for 20% of a team production in our league (at 1.5 games per bench player per week). Or not, in the case of weekly subs. I thought I'd point that out because it's a way bigger number than you seem to imply.
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Re: Lets roll with weekly lineups

Postby Markos » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:50 am

I'm talking about injury coverage. It's a fatal shortcoming of daily leagues IMO. So is the complete incapacity of GM's to both contend and stash a long term prospect. I didn't suggest weekly leagues just for a giggle. Oh, and Rudy Gay got injured last season, and was replaced by Tony Allen. For about 2 or 3 months from memory. But yeah, I pulled the example out of thin air, and used the example of 1 month, not 3, somehow implying bigger numbers. Fantastic logic, thanks for discussing the issue with an even keel. :-t

In a nutshell, having my opponent's scrubs go up against mine for an extra 1.5 games a week each for some extra cookies simply isn't worth being stuck with injured guys getting DNP's for months, or being unable to stash a rook.

Backing out of this for now, probably need to get some other voices in here and see if the weekly format garners enough support for a vote or whatever.
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