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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby RedHopeful » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:09 pm

At a quick glance, looks pretty good.

Just wondering if you're employing Canadian math though:

I bid 3 years at 3M with 10% raises for Player X. The bid looks like this...

Player X – 9.6M (3M + 3.3M + 3.3M)


I'm not Einstein but 10% annual raises should result in 3M + 3.3M + 3.63M?
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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:16 pm

Nope, raises for each year are all a percentage of the first year's salary (which I did mention in the post, but it's a long-ass post...). It's way easier to figure out and keeps the numbers nice and trim. So the raise in the example is 10% of year one, applied to each eligible year.
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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby RedHopeful » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:21 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:Nope, raises for each year are all a percentage of the first year's salary (which I did mention in the post, but it's a long-ass post...). It's way easier to figure out and keeps the numbers nice and trim. So the raise in the example is 10% of year one, applied to each eligible year.

Gotcha - it's why I said quick glance. :-b
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Re: Blind Waiver System - Proposals Welcome

Postby So-Tex » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Again, I'll say that I don't mind the straight blind system as well. My only issues are a) how much can I bid in each scenario (below the soft cap, above the soft cap), and b) what happens if there is a tie?

If I'm below the soft cap, then everything's all hunky-dory with a blind bidding system. But if I'm handcuffed by "You can only bid .25M if you're over the soft cap", then it means crap to me, ergo it can't help me any so why bother. Then there's the issues of a tie-breaker (which I know we've been discussing on and off).

Bottom line for me would be to hammer out these two issues before I'd want to vote. Unfortunately, it looks like we'd have to visit the league rules again in order to square away at least the first concern (how much could be bid and when). We still haven't adjusted for tie breakers yet either, although consensus agrees skewing back towards helping the more needy teams (as it should be).

Otherwise, I'm ok with a blind waiver system - it's kind of similar to what Yahoo does with their FAAB waiver budgets, so I'm good with that.
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Re: Blind Waiver System - Proposals Welcome

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:35 pm

I haven't suggested changing the cap or exception amounts at this time. If you're capped out then you the MLE to work with, plus minimum deals. You're not capped out though, so I'm not sure what the issue is. A FAB like Y!'s is what you use in an auction redraft league, not a salary cap league like this one. Cap space plus the MLE is lots of flex too IMO, at least when you manage your cap well. The possibility of an amnesty this offseason to help clear the books is also a possibility that would allow you to make your own mistakes with the cap, rather than living with someone else's mistakes.

I did address the tie break issue in the other thread, so take a look and see what you think.

Just to be clear, I would also prefer a completely blind waiver/auction system, but there were some concerns there, so I thought up an alternative. I'm fine either way.
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Re: Blind Waiver System - Proposals Welcome

Postby So-Tex » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:41 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:I haven't suggested changing the cap or exception amounts at this time. If you're capped out then you the MLE to work with, plus minimum deals. You're not capped out though, so I'm not sure what the issue is.

Yeah, I know currently I'm good, and with the proposed amnesty to clear the books, I'll be even better. I guess it's just the broken record in me talking. The experience for me last season was so frustrating on some fronts that I'm still reverting to old arguments which seem like they're not being addressed, though they are. Sorry if that's sounding a bit unappreciative on my part.

Fenris-77 wrote:A FAB like Y!'s is what you use in an auction redraft league, not a salary cap league like this one.

I guess what I'm really referring to more is the wavier system used by Yahoo fantasy football. The usual scenario goes like this:

When football games start on Sunday, all FA players are locked and can't be picked up. If a star player goes down with injury, and it seems he could be out for several weeks, his backup becomes a coveted commodity (usually - there have been exceptions to this, though). So, managers bid a certain dollar amount of their FA "budget" in order to pick him up. It's blind, so you don't know what the other managers are bidding. On Tuesday morning, all of the bids are calculated, and the highest bidder wins that player. After all waivers are done, players go back to being FAs, and you can pick them up without having to bid on them. Then on Sunday, the whole process starts all over again.

Fenris-77 wrote:I did address the tie break issue in the other thread, so take a look and see what you think.

That's what I was referring to before - I just have to go back through the threads to refresh my memory. But I've been slammed with work lately, so I'm relegated to these few breaks I have during the day.

Fenris-77 wrote:...that would allow you to make your own mistakes with the cap, rather than living with someone else's mistakes.

That's all I'm asking for brother! ;-D :-D :-b B-)
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Re: Blind Waiver System - Proposals Welcome

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:53 pm

So-Tex wrote: When football games start on Sunday, all FA players are locked and can't be picked up. If a star player goes down with injury, and it seems he could be out for several weeks, his backup becomes a coveted commodity (usually - there have been exceptions to this, though). So, managers bid a certain dollar amount of their FA "budget" in order to pick him up. It's blind, so you don't know what the other managers are bidding. On Tuesday morning, all of the bids are calculated, and the highest bidder wins that player. After all waivers are done, players go back to being FAs, and you can pick them up without having to bid on them. Then on Sunday, the whole process starts all over again.

This doesn't really work in a dynasty format like ours. I like it a lot for the normal auction league we run on the Cafe though. Maybe with some tweaking we could use ut, but it's complicated... :-?

Fenris-77 wrote:I did address the tie break issue in the other thread, so take a look and see what you think.

So-Tex wrote:That's what I was referring to before - I just have to go back through the threads to refresh my memory. But I've been slammed with work lately, so I'm relegated to these few breaks I have during the day.

There's a thread two below this one with the new tie-break suggestion right in the first post.here
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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby So-Tex » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:30 am

Overall, some very well thought out ideas Fen. I'll be mulling over it the next few days as I still have some questions and thoughts.

But coming to what Red mentioned, shouldn't there be some kind of incremental value applied to each year of the contract? I do like the 10% idea you have on the board. But in real life, NBA contracts usually grow over time. I know we're trying to make the league more streamline and easier to deal with on such a grand scale. And I myself have said we need to start thinking about rules which can apply to us specifically, instead of falling back on the old "but that's how it is in the NBA" argument.

However, I still like the novelty of mimicking the NBA in certain areas. And I'm certain contracts don't normally work this way in the NBA - they grow each year of the deal. Some do get smaller in each year as well. But few actually stay at cost, and I don't know of any which only grow 10% after the first year, then stay like that for subsequent years.

I don't mind a fixed growth rate for contracts - i.e. contracts up to 1M grow by 10K, contracts in the 1 to 5M range grow by 25K, while contracts in the 5 to 10M range grow by 50K, etc., or something to that effect. It just doesn't make much sense to me to only increase a 3 or 4 year deal by 10% of the first year. As Red pointed out, 10% of the previous year makes sense to me (like his example.

Other than that though, lots of good ideas here, and a good direction to start. Keep up the good work, Fen! ;-D
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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:10 am

Weeelllll, since you ask, non-compound raises, like the ones I outlined here, are exactly what the NBA uses. Here's the relevant quote from Larry Coon's magnificent Salary Cap FAQ:

48. Are raises compounded? In other words, is each raise a percentage of the previous year's salary?
No. For a normal contract, the raise is limited to a percentage of the first year salary. So if a team signs another team's free agent (8% maximum raises) to a five year contract starting at $10 million, the maximum raise is $800,000 each year.
Link

The NBA does allow up to 12.5% raises in certain circumstances, which may be what you're thinking of. That sounds needlessly complicated for this league though, the math at 10% is so nice.. People can offer less than 10% of course, or no raise at all, I'm not trying to set that in stone, just trying to establish a maximum raise. I'd expect most people to go either 10% or 0%, but that's just based on experience, and there's lots of reasons to possibly take the middle ground there.

There's no cap on the amount a contract can decline by each year, and I think that will work fine for our league. I applaud anyone with the forsight to pull an Oklahoma style (think Nick Collison) deal to land the guy they wany with the last of their cap space. I'm not sure if that's in the rules, but if it isn't, it will be.
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Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby So-Tex » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:32 am

But looking at the example in the link, the contract still grows each year. The percentage amount is set by the first year, but that amount is added to each subsequent year. The example in the link reads like this:

For a normal contract, the raise is limited to a percentage of the first year salary. So if a team signs another team's free agent (8% maximum raises) to a five year contract starting at $10 million, the maximum raise is $800,000 each year. This player's five-year salary would be:
Year 1 $10,000,000
Year 2 $10,800,000
Year 3 $11,600,000
Year 4 $12,400,000
Year 5 $13,200,000

So the contract is still getting larger each year, which is what I think Red was alluding to when he asked about the math.

Let's say we apply the NBA example to our simple way of using 10%. 3 years starting at 3M dollars then would look like this:

9.9M (3M + 3.3M + 3.6M)

In this example, we're adding .3M (10% of 3M) to each subsequent year. Just for kicks, if it was a five year deal (which we don't have in this league), it would look like this:

18M (3M + 3.3M + 3.6M + 3.9M + 4.2M)

What you had originally was this:

I bid 3 years at 3M with 10% raises for Player X. The bid looks like this...

Player X – 9.6M (3M + 3.3M + 3.3M)

You're missing the last year's increment of .3M, which would make year three 3.6M, and make the total of the contract 9.9M.

Which brings up the reason why we use the first year of a deal to determine our cap space. If we use the entire 9.9M to determine how much goes against our salary cap, we'll be spent out after just a handful of players. By using the first year of a contract, or the current year of a contract (for those players who are down to one or two years left on their deals), we're able to stay under the cap a lot further than we would otherwise. I'd rather keep using first year/current year to figure our cap space than switch to overall contract values. It does make sense to discuss contracts in such a way - "20M over four years" and such - but the increment system we have now does work - and it makes sense to me. And just so you know, I'm not sure if that's one of the points you wanted to change or not, but I just wanted to make sure I threw my two cents in there. If it's not a point of change, my apologies for hashing out the obvious.

And the way Coon has it laid out is exactly how I envisioned NBA contracts - they grow each year for the most part. It's just the percentages by which they grow that are different. Some players get small amounts of growth per year, while others (probably the super stars) get higher percentage increases. But the bottom line is they still get an incremental raise.

So for what it's worth, the 10% formula (as described above) works for me. The easier the math, the better! ;-D
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