2010-2011 Season Stuff - Fantasy Basketball Cafe 2014
Fantasy Basketball Cafe


Return to FBC Salary Cap

2010-2011 Season Stuff

Moderators: silentjim, RedHopeful, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:07 am

I've read this thread through a couple of times, and I like the general idea. I've got a few comments below, and it will probably come across as overly critical. Thats not my intention..I just can't be bothered typing all the bits I do like, which is most of it.

1. I'm not really sold on the blind bidding. I think it's unrealistic, and am also concerned that it encourages overbidding. Maybe we can get round this by the top bidder only having to pay the minimum increment over and above the 2nd place bidder. If we do that, I'd probably be ok with it.

2. Regarding only being able to bid on the 2nd day if you bid on the 3rd day. In practice everyone could just bid the minimum on the 1st day, so I don't really see the point of this rule. Cleaner to let everyone bid whenever they want.

3. How about being able to add an extra year over and above the usual maximum when bidding on your own FA (bird rights)? It sounds like something like this might be in the new CBA anyway. Maybe its overpowered, but a +1 modifier in tie break seems way too underpowered for keeping your own guys. Thats my 2 cents anyway.

4. Also not sold on the +1 modifier for each top 10 player. This promotes rich get richer, not "competitve balance" ;-) Also, while I get the argument that FA want to go somewhere they can win, players are also concerned about "touches". I'm not sure how to improve on this just yet though...

5. I don't really like the idea of "league decides" for the top 5/10 players. Too messy, too much extra work imo. I'd suggest just using BBM's predictions for the upcoming season. In my experience, they are surprisingly good, especially for the upper tier guys that have a track record. If there is anyone that really stands out as being silly, then maybe a screening committe could remove them, but most of the time I'd guess this isn't necessary.

6. While I really like the top player idea for tie break purposes, I'll point out that not all positions are created equal. The average value of the top 10 Cs is significantly higher than the avg of the top 10 SFs for example. The 10th ranked C last year gave 3rd round value, while the 10th ranked SF gave 5th. This means a manager could get a +1 modifier for what is essentially an average player. Maybe the modifiers should be based on absolute player value. E.g, +2 pts for every player with a BBM per game value of 0.35 or greater, and + 1 for every player with a value between 0.35 and 0.2. This would split last years players into 2 roughly equal groups, and encompass the top 3 rounds/36 players. Maybe include a negative modifier for players at the same position as the guy being bid on.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:50 pm

1. Blind bidding is more about streamlining the auction process than about 'realism'. The last minute minimum salary bump thing was a huge pain in the ass last year.

2. In practice no they probably won't, because if even one person doesn't, then they lose. Most people will normally make a reasonable offer, if perhaps on the low end, on the first day. I also think it's fair to say that the cuurrent system resulted in some massively bloated contracts anyway. People need to spend reasonably in any event. If you want a little more transparency we could always make the first day bids public after they come in and allow everyone a chance to bid on day two.

3/4. I'm open to anything on the tie-break front. What I had done was a very rough cut idea anyway.

5. Using BBM was my first idea, and at the time no one here wanted to do it. BBM also has the problem of ignoring certain obvious top 10 type guys who were injured or whatever in the previous year. It's a great base though.
Fenris-77
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorCafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6326
(Past Year: 279)
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:05 pm

I get the streamlining thing for blind bidding, but thats probably the only thing I like about it. No reason why we couldn't do the same as before, but with a hard deadline. I could see that ending in contentious situations though. If you really want to speed everything up though, we could get rid off the first day of bidding all together. 24 hours per group, highest bidder wins, end of story. I still like my idea of winner pays the 2nd highest bid + min increment here. That way, you have to bid what you thing the guy is worth, but not pay more than you would have under an open auction.

The beauty of using BBM projections rather than last years results is that it won't be hamstrung by last years injuries and fluke situations.

I say even if there isn't a season, we run an auction to test out the mechanics of whatever we settle on. We wouldn't even need the whole league- just whoever is keen to beta test.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:40 pm

Has anyone ever raised the idea of a straight hard cap? I know the soft cap and MLE and whatnot was tryig to make it more like the NBA, but does any of this make the game more fun? It certainly makes it more complecated. Going to a pure hard cap would cut alot of the fat out of the rules.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:26 am

dasein wrote:I get the streamlining thing for blind bidding, but thats probably the only thing I like about it. No reason why we couldn't do the same as before, but with a hard deadline. I could see that ending in contentious situations though. If you really want to speed everything up though, we could get rid off the first day of bidding all together. 24 hours per group, highest bidder wins, end of story. I still like my idea of winner pays the 2nd highest bid + min increment here. That way, you have to bid what you thing the guy is worth, but not pay more than you would have under an open auction.

My issue with a hard deadline is that it opens the door for the 11:59 minimum outbid, which I think sucks. How about this, we cap the bidding at whatever we decide (24 hours, whatever) after which the top two or three guys get an additional time period to bid against each other. That would at least avoid the random last minute bidders and it will streamline the bidding at least a little. That second round of bidding could also be done blind, but you'd already have a baseline for what the other teams are willing to pay, so it avoids having some of the issues you identify with a completely blind system.

dasein wrote:The beauty of using BBM projections rather than last years results is that it won't be hamstrung by last years injuries and fluke situations.

I don't to be excluding obvious high-end fantasy types because they had an injury shortened year. We could also use something like Yahoo's O Rank, which has the value of being somewhat predictive for the upcoming year. Not everyone agrees with all the rankings there, but whatevs.

dasein wrote:I say even if there isn't a season, we run an auction to test out the mechanics of whatever we settle on. We wouldn't even need the whole league- just whoever is keen to beta test.

I'm completely on board. Call me keen. :-D
Fenris-77
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorCafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6326
(Past Year: 279)
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:02 am

Fenris-77 wrote: How about this, we cap the bidding at whatever we decide (24 hours, whatever) after which the top two or three guys get an additional time period to bid against each other. That would at least avoid the random last minute bidders and it will streamline the bidding at least a little. That second round of bidding could also be done blind, but you'd already have a baseline for what the other teams are willing to pay, so it avoids having some of the issues you identify with a completely blind system.


This seems like a lot of arsing around. I'd take you're original suggestion over this I think. I didn't really do much bidding last year cause I inhereted bugger all cap room, but I can see how the last minute thing is a pain. I think I'm starting to talk myself into the blind bid with set finish time.

Fenris-77 wrote:I don't to be excluding obvious high-end fantasy types because they had an injury shortened year. We could also use something like Yahoo's O Rank, which has the value of being somewhat predictive for the upcoming year. Not everyone agrees with all the rankings there, but whatevs.

I haven't paid any attention to the O ranks for a couple of years because they were historically rubbish. Don't think using them improves on BBM projections. Again, using projections (not last years final rankings) would account for injuries. Actually, just using per game numbers rather than totals would do this too.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:59 pm

I'd take a completely blind system too, which is why I suggested it. I like it because it's nice and clean and takes a predictable amount of time. I also really like it for once a week blind waivers because it means you don't have to be the first guys to bid in order to, say, bid the minimum. Anyway, the fully blind system is what gets my vote, but I'm also willing to kick around alternatives. This will require a fairly robust and well thought out tie break system though, especially for all those min bid WW adds.

As for BBM, I was already thinking that per game numbers is what we should be using, especially since this isn't a roto league. We can use the PG numbers no problem, but I still think we should make sure that the list produced there isn't missing anyone obvious. The whole idea needs to at least pass the laugh test in order to be useful.
Fenris-77
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorCafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6326
(Past Year: 279)
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:56 am

Just thought of another wrinkle with making top 5/10 rankings. When you rank across 9 cats, you get some silly results from a H2H point of view where cat punting is fine.

Examples: DH12 isn't a top 5 centre, and Bogat doesn't register for top 10 modifer purposes. To me, these don't pass the laugh test. An elegant, but possibly time consuming, way around this is to run of a list that disregards a players worst 1 or 2 categories. Plondon made such a list at the beginning of last year I think. It would probably be a wee bit of work to generate, but not that much.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby Fenris-77 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:26 am

So we're essentially back to my original plan, which was to do a list based on BBM values but ratioanlized for our league and settings plus injuries and whatnot. I think that's fine, and I think it'd be easier to just do the list ourselves than to try and tweak BBM numbers the way you suggest. Personally, I'd just list the top 15 or 20 guys by position using BBM, shuffle them around until it makes sense, and then cut it off at whatever number we want.
Fenris-77
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorCafeholicResponse TeamFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6326
(Past Year: 279)
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Basketball

Re: Bidding, Tie Breaks, Salary tidbits

Postby dasein » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:12 am

Yeah, except there is more objectivity to it. I could probably get behind having a small commitee (2 or 3) to sort out the lists, as long as the methodology is clearly set out before hand so everyone understands what it's doing . Opening it up to the whole league sounds like a fustercluck waiting to happen.
dasein
Assistant Coach
Assistant Coach

User avatar

Posts: 986
(Past Year: 377)
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Home Cafe: Basketball

PreviousNext

Return to FBC Salary Cap

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues



Get Ready...
The 2014 NBA season starts in 17:27 hours
(and 58 days)


  • Fantasy Basketball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact