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OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:17 am

dasein wrote:This is a little spurious. Getting the cheap player in season has more to do with other GMs not having the roster spot or cap space available than it does simply deciding not to bid. The GM who dropped the guy could complain that he did so because he was wasting (an expiring) 3M on him, yet he isn't allowed to join the new bidding at 0.5M. All of this is only relevant to expiring contracts of course.
So don't drop him and handle it in the offseason. The GM knows he won't be allowed to bid on the guy, so no, he has nothing to complain about.

dasein wrote:If I wanted to defend the status quo, I'd start with pointing out that players who blow up unexpectedly- like SANDERS! last year- are subject to the same market limitations. You could then mention that having a little cap and open spots up your sleeve for the season is a strategic decision.
Of course it is, and people who miss this have no one but themselves to blame.

dasein wrote:No secret that bird rights are piss-weak as is. Something else we could look at.
The auction system itself is a bigger deal IMO. Bird Rights would follow from that.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby dcdoorknob » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:24 am

I don't really see how to make bird rights at all meaningful while still keeping the hard cap in place. The only real use for them in the real nba is to resign returning players when you are already over the (soft) cap. I like our hard cap for this league though.

Also curious to actually hear what is wrong with and how to change the auction system. I don't have a problem with it myself.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby Da Ruhl » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:32 am

Although I don't feel at all strongly about it, the logical thing to do in my mind with Bird rights is:

- Remove the ability to do 15% increases (to simplify)
- Remove the tiebreak on Bird rights (to simplify)
- If a player with Bird rights bids a total contract of C, it counts (for bidding purposes only, not for salary) as (1 + x) * C

Not sure what x should be; hypothetically let's say it is 5%. So if an owner with Bird rights bids 20/20/20/20 for Durant, then that counts as 4*20*1.05 = 84. So, despite removing the explicit tiebreak, Bird rights still effectively guarantee a win on max.

For all non-max players, it would give an edge to the existing owner in that they can win the player while bidding cheaper than the next highest bidder.

One could imagine having x% vary by years in league, length of previous contract, last year's finish (either as an anti-tanking provision or as a balance provision), etc. etc. but I suspect a fixed x% for all owners and all players is better to keep it simple. This gives a benefit to Bird rights without explicitly violating the hard cap (perhaps it does implicitly though).

Am not pushing/advocating for a change (will leave it to others to discuss/decide). But if it is decided to change it, I think this is a reasonable solution.

Just my 2c..

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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby dasein » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:39 am

dcdoorknob wrote:I don't really see how to make bird rights at all meaningful while still keeping the hard cap in place. The only real use for them in the real nba is to resign returning players when you are already over the (soft) cap.

Also curious to actually hear what is wrong with and how to change the auction system. I don't have a problem with it myself.


Totally agree with the last part.

To the first part - I also don't have a major problem with bird rights being weak. The idea is to let market forces decide who gets players as much as possible, rather than some historical artifact.

And at the risk of mudding the waters by throwing in another topic- I think the max salary needs to be increased. As is, the owners of Lebron and Durant get a large built in market discount (to amplify the on-court advantage). Ideally, these guys should be payed around $30 given their impact. This would also give seperation from current 1st round types that do tend to get paid more or less fairly, and consequently evens the playing field a bit. I suspect this relatively simple change might address some of fenris' issues with the current system as well.

I know that in the real NBA, Lebron the super elite players are underpaid too, but we don't have to copy their mistakes.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:46 am

The small increment bumping and transparent bidding mean that most salaries get ballooned, especially guy closer to the max, whom you will end up paying the max for regardless. Plus the nature of the bidding allows you to get 'surprised' and win two guys at once when you only wanted one of them (with nothing to be done about it). Going back and forth for days with a guy making minimum salary bumps is annoying, but not as annoying as when the salary gets that min bump in the middle of the night, ten minutes before you win the bidding.

Beyond that the public posting of waiver claims essentially acts like a 48 hour early warning system for guys who aren't on the ball - those dudes don't need to know what's going on they just need to see who shows up on the league forum. The they get two days to hum and haw about whether they want to make a tiny friggin little bid increase on that waiver guy. That stupid shizz can go on for days, it ridiculous.

What would be fairer (and faster) is to use a two tiered bid system for both waivers and the FA auction. For the FAs you could keep the groupings like we have now, but anyone who wants bid to bid submits a salary number in secret on the first auction day for that group. The top three bids (or whatever) from that first day then have an additional day to submit a revised bid (again in secret). Best bid wins the player after that. Each bidding round all participating players rank their bids from 1 through whatever, and during resolution you start with one's and the GM in question gets to retract or continue with any other bids further down his priority list. Obviously the system has a layer of small modifiers to help seperate the contracts (bonuses for Playoffs, champs, home team, ect ect).

Waivers using that system would be once a week, say Sunday, and work the same way.

This is the system (more of less) that my other salary cap league uses and it works really well.

Even a modified transparent bidding system that used the two day/two bid system rather than the incremental auction would be better. (i.e. you get to see all the bids from day one and everyone gets to submit a second bid)
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby silentjim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 am

Fenris-77 wrote:The small increment bumping and transparent bidding mean that most salaries get ballooned, especially guy closer to the max, whom you will end up paying the max for regardless. Plus the nature of the bidding allows you to get 'surprised' and win two guys at once when you only wanted one of them (with nothing to be done about it). Going back and forth for days with a guy making minimum salary bumps is annoying, but not as annoying as when the salary gets that min bump in the middle of the night, ten minutes before you win the bidding.

Beyond that the public posting of waiver claims essentially acts like a 48 hour early warning system for guys who aren't on the ball - those dudes don't need to know what's going on they just need to see who shows up on the league forum. The they get two days to hum and haw about whether they want to make a tiny friggin little bid increase on that waiver guy. That stupid shizz can go on for days, it ridiculous.

What would be fairer (and faster) is to use a two tiered bid system for both waivers and the FA auction. For the FAs you could keep the groupings like we have now, but anyone who wants bid to bid submits a salary number in secret on the first auction day for that group. The top three bids (or whatever) from that first day then have an additional day to submit a revised bid (again in secret). Best bid wins the player after that. Each bidding round all participating players rank their bids from 1 through whatever, and during resolution you start with one's and the GM in question gets to retract or continue with any other bids further down his priority list. Obviously the system has a layer of small modifiers to help seperate the contracts (bonuses for Playoffs, champs, home team, ect ect).

Waivers using that system would be once a week, say Sunday, and work the same way.

This is the system (more of less) that my other salary cap league uses and it works really well.

Even a modified transparent bidding system that used the two day/two bid system rather than the incremental auction would be better. (i.e. you get to see all the bids from day one and everyone gets to submit a second bid)


Fenris, I'm not going to lie. This auction system seems insanely complicated and impossible. There would have to be a commissioner or something who didn't play the game, who just monitored these things. In addition the blind bidding doesn't fit real life or fantasy. The only sport that has blind bidding like that is baseball when they try to win bidding rights for a player. That part I could see, but I think you're talking about a complete redo of the league, which I don't think is possible anymore.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby dasein » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:16 am

@Fenris (don't want to include that big post in quote)

Yeah, that's why I said that increasing the max salary (while leaving the cap where it is) might address some of your issues. It should stop the "ceiling creep effect" you mention in the first paragraph. The reason you end up paying the max for wesbrook is that 20M isn't that far removed from the 15M or so he's really worth. But with a 30M cap, if you give Westbrook the max then you are simply a dumbass who is paying twice as much as the player is worth and you deserve what you get. You'll probably still have to pay 30M to get Durant or LeBron, but that's ok because those guys are actually worth it. All in all, it should produce a more efficient market. Actually, now that I think about it, having no max salary would do this get rid of the need for tiebreakers as well.

Most of your issues with the current system are just a part of auctions- I know, I just bought a house in a city where over 50% of sales happen through auction. What you're suggesting is really a 2-tier tender rather than an auction. That's fine, we don't have to use auction, I just don't share the animosity towards the way we currently do it. The length of time doesn't bother me either- nothing much else to do fantasy-wise at this time of year.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:17 am

silentjim wrote:Fenris, I'm not going to lie. This auction system seems insanely complicated and impossible.

Not at all. Free agency in my other league takes two or three weeks max and runs like clockwork. Obviously I didn't fill in all the details there. And no, there's no impartial non-playing GM.It's not supposed to fit real life either specifically, but IMO it's actually closer to how things actually work than the min bump bullshit we're currently working with.

The animosity here isn't actually for the system (although there are a couple of really rough patches there) but more for the notion that we need all these bandaids to patch up what is essentially someone else's bad GMing. If guys don't have space it's by their own choice, if they have big contracts (as I do) it's also by choice. I'm not bitching about Westbrook here either, but that contract is a symptom of the league format. If GMs would stop spending the moon on mediocre midrange guys they wouldn't have cap issues. That's one place where our league matches the real NBA very well. :-b
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby Fenris-77 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:35 am

Back to the original point for a moment, I have no problem with the team that drops an injured player not being able to bid on him later. First because it avoids the stink of gaming the system. I don't want teams dropping injured guys knowing that they can get them back on the cheap almost right away and realize a big chunk of salary relief. If that guy happens to go to another team on a sweetheart deal it is what it is. The team that dropped him would only have done so to realize a competitive advantage, by which I mean load up for a playoff run using the resulting cap space. Or they're negligent, whatever. Either way I think they need to sleep in the bed they made.

@dasein - the length of time issue has more to do with overlapping auctions that it does with the actual time taken. If we resolve the auction in batches, without overlap, GMs at least get to know who they have before they make other offers. That's why I suggested a system like that when we started this league, and have continued to suggest it at pretty much every opportunity. What we have now is hot mess.
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Re: OFFICIAL SCL RULES

Postby dasein » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:48 am

I kind of enjoy the "hot mess",if that's what it is. But never let it be said I'm closed minded to change.

I'd be open to trialing a new system for this coming FA period, with the option to go back to the old way if we don't like it. It sounds like it's the type of thing you might need to do before you understand it. Maybe we could run a couple of mock auction/tender rounds as a trial and go from there?
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