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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby bujfan2030 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:55 am

I'm enjoying this thread, but this is a lot of work just to get Dwight and Blake into the first round. :-)

I know some of us have been trying to make the argument that scoring is the most important aspect of the game. But I've seen it argued that the other counting stats(REb, Blk, ast, stl) contribute just as much(if not more) to your win total. Primarily the Wages of Wins guys. But others too. Hoopdata's got its four factors: eFG%, TO rate,O-Reb rate, Free Throw rate.. I mean there's gotta be a reason Luc Mbah Moute starts in the NBA. In fact, I'm not convinced that scoring itself needs to be rewarded with FGM. Yes elite scoring is a valuable skill. But is it really a more important skill than rebounding, creating another possession, or preventing the other team from scoring?
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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby Garf » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:27 am

Very interesting proposal! Not a big fan of emphasising the points though, I have a feeling it'll help streaky shooters on bad teams.

But indeed the question here is more about what you expect from your fantasy games. Most people treat them as mindless fun, which is fine as long as they don't involve me :-D Myself, I'm trying to simulate the sport as well as I can, because I want to feel like a true GM.

My system (scored on Fantrax) is this:
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Rough ideas behind it are: strongly emphasise +/-. This mean punishment for minutes on a bad team. Minutes on a good team are a positive indication. Also, to bring some spotlight onto the top defenders, punish those who take bad shots. Compared to standard Fantrax settings, I'm happy to report the changes in FP/G ranking for the NBA All-Defense Team members:

Thabo10: 181st to 148th.
Battier09: 104th to 75th.
Battier08: 88th to 62nd.
Bell08: 93rd to 72nd.

(In case you're curious, this is a part of my big project: the most realistic league ever. Apart from this kind of advanced scoring, we're also trying to follow the CBA as closely as possible. And since not many people have any idea about the latter, I'm still looking for more people and you could join here: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?board=1034.0)
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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby Fenris-77 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:19 am

So free throws are worth one per attempt but -2 per make? :-? Tell me that's some sort of mistake in how you transcribed the rules...

Points style scoring is certainly one way to fine tune the categories, but the majority of what we've been talking about is cutting down on cats but at the same time changing the emphasis and making it more reflective of the actual game. 12 cats with (I assume) unadjusted +/- doesn't really do that. Never mind the fact that I'm dead set against unadjusted +/- as a stat anyway, and only luke-warm on adjusted +/-. In general I'm not sure +/- has a place in fantasy as a scoring category. You'd be better of scoring aggregate win shares, and even that I'm only so-so on as a metric. Generally speaking I don't think it's wise to score advanced metrics for fantasy, as much as I'm a huge fan of them outside of fantasy. The reason I don't care for it is that most of them, either directly or indirectly, try to measure impact on the game with one number, and that number is some sort of collection of the the other stats run through a formula. Fantasy already scores those other stats though, and rewarding guys twice isn't generally going to make the game more interesting.

I have seen versions of fantasy that score nothing but advanced metrics, and that is interesting, but only to a small slice of the basketball watching public (including me, but I get enough advanced stats in the rest of my basketball analysis and don't feel the need to tack in on to my fantasy hobby).
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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby bujfan2030 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:30 am

I hate that =/- stat. Where's the sense in punishing good player's on bad teams.
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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby Fenris-77 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:55 am

bujfan2030 wrote:I hate that =/- stat. Where's the sense in punishing good player's on bad teams.

Plus/minus doesn't necessarily do that, but that doesn't change my distaste for it as a scoring category. The impact of a good player on a bad team would actually be greater viewed through the lens of +/- since the drop off when that guy is off the floor is likely to be pretty huge. I think it hurts good players on good teams a lot more. The stats itself can be driven up or down to a fairly big extend based on the quality of a team's bench role players, and that's not something I want to score.
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Re: Different (Better?) Categories

Postby Garf » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:20 am

Fenris-77, not sure I was clear enough. You should treat my previous post in the "in case you're curious" category. Of course I'm not saying these should be default fantasy settings. I live inside that teeny tiny slice you mentioned.

Fenris-77 wrote:So free throws are worth one per attempt but -2 per make? :-? Tell me that's some sort of mistake in how you transcribed the rules...

FTM means Missed :)

Fenris-77 wrote:You'd be better of scoring aggregate win shares, and even that I'm only so-so on as a metric.

Agreed, but do you know a fantasy website that allows that? I'd be very interested!

Fenris-77 wrote:I have seen versions of fantasy that score nothing but advanced metrics, and that is interesting, but only to a small slice of the basketball watching public (including me, but I get enough advanced stats in the rest of my basketball analysis and don't feel the need to tack in on to my fantasy hobby).

Remember that I run the league where you have to understand the CBA deeply, read a lot of Coon etc. What I'm trying to do is get rid of so-called "fantasy value" and replace it with "basketball value". Do you honestly think a standard 8-cat would fit the idea? }:-)

bujfan2030 wrote:I hate that =/- stat. Where's the sense in punishing good player's on bad teams.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim is a career 18.1ppg .472 FG% scorer, but not an elite player.
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