2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in - Fantasy Basketball Cafe 2014
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2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby nykos » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:14 pm

for me, you can sleep and match in 2 cases from what I read:
- RFA, when a rookie goes for his first veteran contract
- Max bid at 20M

thanks all for confirming about this point and my previous other questions!
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby scully19 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:19 pm

nykos wrote:Hi Guys,

After my chinese trip, I can definitely say I'm yours. I dig day after day the rules & old threads to get used to the rules & all details that can make the difference.

1. Regarding taking over a team, I wanted to know if new owners can amnesty one/two contracts without impacting the cap. I saw some hot discussion with some new(old) owners (SoTex mainly 2years ago) around some contracts...
If I'm correct (I found some excel files of the teams for 2011 & 2012 seasons with Scully's skydrive : fbb2 & fbb3.xlsm), calderon was not in your cap anymore in 2012 file? all 3 teams have some not so sexy contracts...

2. Regarding the tie breaker n°2 for FA auctions, did someone already build the table with BBM data (data from last season right?)

3. Where you stand in the evolution of the tiebreaking system? it seems all new teams have 0 shot at the current top5 players....we need to tank for geting draft picks and draft picks? even if I understand the concept of a good player wanting to play with good teams, we saw James leave for Miami at the time where Miami had only one star in dwayne wade, so in reality, it can happen too, but no way in this league, right?

4. Bird Rights will be used only for max players right?
if a player in traded in the last season of his contract, does the new team gains the birds rights or should he play one full season for this team?

5. FA auctions timing: 12h may be short some days for me with my 6h time difference... (if I need to go to work with a day starting by meetings....)

looking forward to your comments ! ;-)

1. We discussed having any new team be able to do that, I'm not positive on where we landed but I'm on the side of being able to amnesty a player.
2. Not yet.
3. This def needs looking at, as it is already clear to you that if someone wants to keep a max player they will have no problem doing so.
4. Bird rights are used for any player, and are basically useless IMO except for the 2 places you identified. They can however also be used on any player to give 15% yearly increases instead of 10. Barely useful though clearly.
5. Auctions are 24h I believe.
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby Da Ruhl » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:50 pm

Some quick thoughts (from an admittedly biased newbie):

1. Tend to agree something should be done here. Perhaps another option is to give each new owner the option of taking the team as is or entirely reset. Or allow the three new owners to choose between first choice of team (with no amnestying), second choice of team (with one amnesty), and third choice of team (with two amnesties). Latter idea is driven by my perception that the three open teams are pretty non-equal in terms of prospects for this year and next.

3. I noticed the same thing in terms of it being nearly impossible to pry top 5 players away given the Bird rights and relative ease of avoiding having a star-rated backup. To an extent, it does remind me of the real NBA where there are not nearly enough players who are a steal even at the max and having one of the few is a huge advantage (and hence they traditionally move infrequently). The only reasonable solution I've seen proposed for the NBA (and the only one I can think of here) is to raise the max salary significantly. With a max of 30 or even 40 the right to resign LBJ or KD at the max via Bird rights and the tiebreak system would be much less valuable (which, to be fair, would be a tough pill to swallow for their owners).

Just my 2c!

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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby So-Tex » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:22 pm

Regarding Bird's rights, I agree with scully's sentiment. They're not really useful outside of trying to keep your max player or keep a player coming off his rookie contract.

Bird's rights are a good idea in theory - the thing is, most of us given the option to them on the 5M to 7M type players, usually just relinquish them because there are other FA's we'd like to target during the off-season (the whole "grass is greener" affect). Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's actually the cheap guys who's Bird's rights get waived. But it seems to me like I've seen managers waive their Bird's rights to players mostly under 10M. And the newbies will learn quickly that a LOT of players fall under the 10M range, very easily.

What if we made an exclusion list, where, say, the top 20 or 30 players DO NOT have Bird's rights attached to them. This way, at least the top tier players would get recycled when their contracts came up. I'd like as much of a chance to own Kevin Durant, LBJ, or any of the top five as well. But the way Bird's rights are worded, it favors the current owners. Which I get is the purpose. But for those top tier players, I think it makes little sense. And really, that's what the tie-breakers are for.

Say the Durant owner (I apologize, but I don't know who you are currently - just using as an example) has KD's contract come up. He goes to free agency. That owner, as well as those with cap space, have the option to bid on him for 20M. So let's say that owner and two others put in bids. Then it comes down to the tie-breakers to see who now becomes the new owner of Durant. If the old owner had a crap team with KD on it, then he might have a better chance of getting him back anyway without even needing Bird's rights. If not, someone else gets the chance at owning him.

I've got to run now, so I can't expand on this any more at the moment, but I think the basic idea is there. I don't know if it really solves anything or not though. It's just me thinking again. ;-)
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby dasein » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:00 am

barrec wrote:One of the benefits of bird rights is being able to match a contract offer without having to bid on a player (I learned that first hand last season).


No, that's not right. You can match a winning bid (without bidding yourself) if you hold the rights to a restricted free agent (basically coming off a rookie contract). Having bird rights is different. It just gives you a tie breaker advantage and allows you to offer bigger increases. In practice, the tie breaker is only needed for max contracts, as Nico says.
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby dasein » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:22 am

nykos wrote:
1. Regarding taking over a team, I wanted to know if new owners can amnesty one/two contracts without impacting the cap. I saw some hot discussion with some new(old) owners (SoTex mainly 2years ago) around some contracts...
If I'm correct (I found some excel files of the teams for 2011 & 2012 seasons with Scully's skydrive : fbb2 & fbb3.xlsm), calderon was not in your cap anymore in 2012 file? all 3 teams have some not so sexy contracts...

We did discuss this a while back and the majority were against it. Also, everyone got to amnesty a season or two ago and we don't really want to be doing this every year. Also-also, none of the teams up for grabs have terrible contract situations compared to what the new guy intake from 3 seasons ago got (Me/So-Tex/others), and we didn't get special treatment then. So no, you shouldn't expect to have an amnesty.

2. Regarding the tie breaker n°2 for FA auctions, did someone already build the table with BBM data (data from last season right?) No, the "star player" list hasn't been made yet. I was thinking of not making it unless required actually. It's a bit of work to put together and there's a decent chance it won't be needed.

3. Where you stand in the evolution of the tiebreaking system? it seems all new teams have 0 shot at the current top5 players....we need to tank for geting draft picks and draft picks? even if I understand the concept of a good player wanting to play with good teams, we saw James leave for Miami at the time where Miami had only one star in dwayne wade, so in reality, it can happen too, but no way in this league, right? First, I think we need to throw this idea that tanking is needed to get a star rookie out the window. Check out the lottery odds for this league- all non-playoff teams have a much better chance of winning than in the NBA. Also, the fantasy stars don't always come from a top 3 pick.
Second, feel free to offer tiebreaking improvements if you have them, keeping in mind there are generally only 2 or 3 players that are worth the max.


4. Bird Rights will be used only for max players right?
if a player in traded in the last season of his contract, does the new team gains the birds rights or should he play one full season for this team? Bird rights move with the trade yes. The tie break advantage attached to bird rights is only really important for max players as you say. The ability to increase salary could in theory be used for anyone, but in practice we don't seem to use it for whatever reason.

5. FA auctions timing: 12h may be short some days for me with my 6h time difference... (if I need to go to work with a day starting by meetings....) The 12 hour countdown restarts with each new (legal) bid. So if you bid on a player, you only need to be able to check back in within 12 hours from that time.

looking forward to your comments ! ;-)
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby dcdoorknob » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:36 am

Durant owner here. :D

Even given that I'd love to basically be guaranteed to keep him until he's 35 or older, I'd be open to the idea of tweaking the tiebreaker rules to give other teams a chance at the top top guys.

My idea is to basically combine tiebreakers 2 and 3 into 1 tiebreaker, and tally up all those points from both those tiebreakers simultaneously. So bird rights still give an advantage in the form of the extra point (or we could even make it 2 points), but they aren't virtually assured to win you TB #2 like they are now. Another team with great star players (not at the FAs position) would still have a decent chance at the max FA.
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby dcdoorknob » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:42 am

Oh, and re: the amnesty thing.... I'm not super open to it given that I just took over a team last year that had Amare eating 19 million of capspace, and had no amnesty option for that.
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby barrec » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:40 am

dasein wrote:
barrec wrote:One of the benefits of bird rights is being able to match a contract offer without having to bid on a player (I learned that first hand last season).


No, that's not right. You can match a winning bid (without bidding yourself) if you hold the rights to a restricted free agent (basically coming off a rookie contract). Having bird rights is different. It just gives you a tie breaker advantage and allows you to offer bigger increases. In practice, the tie breaker is only needed for max contracts, as Nico says.


Oops. I indeed stand corrected - I confused the two. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: 2013-2014 Draft Order and Check-in

Postby Da Ruhl » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:57 pm

On the amnesty piece, I'm good either way. While of course I'd like to have it :-D, I know I get one of my top two choices of teams, and while I do think one is a good bit better than the other, neither is in desperate need of amnesty (in my view). I was less able to formulate a compelling plan going forward around what I view as the third choice team without it (depending on whether mass buyout strategies are considered rebuilding or tanking), but given my inexperience with the league format, that probably doesn't mean much.

Spreadsheet does sound like a lot of work, and no sense in building it if it is not needed. The fact that it is not needed though might confirm that the tiebreaking system can be refined. I like dcdoorknob's suggestion of combining steps #2 and #3 - I do think this is close to how the NBA is working now - max guys go to the best team with some preference for their own. I'm not sure they care too much about their backup being too good (part of current tiebreak #2) - assumption is the backup will get traded if it is an issue. This would lead a bit to "rich get richer", but not unlike NBA now. Although I do think the combined #2 and #3 is more realistic, another way to get to a solution philosophically similar to a combined #2 and #3 would be to tiebreak based on the previous season's finish (better finish, higher priority). Has an equal amount of "rich get richer", is somewhat less realistic as it is less forward-looking, but is a lot less work.

I do think allowing a higher max is a good solution in sense of giving all the teams a fair shot despite their only being a handful of max+ guys, but is also much less faithful to the current NBA structure. Perhaps a revised tiebreak and an uptick in the max to 25 or 30 would be a nice combo.

Apologies for the long, opionated e-mail from the owner who knows the least about what's going on. Any and all "so this must be how David Stern felt when Mark Cuban came into the league" jokes are very much welcomed! :-)

-DR
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