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2013-2014 Season Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:16 am

It seems to be saying cap holds dont count until a bid is over because u can possibly be beat out by someone later
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:42 am

nsink wrote:It seems to be saying cap holds dont count until a bid is over because u can possibly be beat out by someone later


That's not what it's saying at all. Cap holds count until you are outbid, at which point they vanish like an old oak table (if you're not a Black Adder fan you probably won't get that so don't worry). There was nothing wrong with the auction bidding in this case so any auction talk is irrelevant here.

What you're wanting is a punishment for making a trade without the cap to do so. I understand that desire, but I honestly can't think of anything that makes sense. Taking a pick is too much. I spose you could dock some cap, but DV has no cap left to dock so that won't work either. Even if he did- how much is enough?

The second consideration is that the rule we apply to auctions is strictly an incentive to be careful with your cap during auctions. It is not there just to punish for the sake of punishment. The reason why we need to be especially careful with the auctions is because things can get messy very quickly due to their dynamic nature. Some may remember the mess around the Pau action last year that had spill over effects in multiple other auctions. Headaches like that won't arise from illegal trades simply because they're isolated transactions- not part of a chain like an auction bid. Also they're guaranteed to be caught before they happen (when scully edits the spreadsheet). So while you can argue that morally an illegal trade is just as bad as an illegal bid, in practical terms I'm much less worried about it and consequently, less motivated to come up with some arbitrary punishment. I'd think the fact that you won't actually be allowed to make an illegal trade is reason enough to not try it. Again, punishments are there to encourage a particular behavior, not because they're fun and we like doing it.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:48 am

Maybe but you don't know his motivations. Maybe he never wanted Jack but didn't want to let me slow play rockets with low bid matches until something shinier came along. Just saying rules are for a reason strategy is involved. If this is the ruling then it would seem to need to be the rule for everyone going forward. Picking and choosing when rules apply cause problems
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:03 am

Guys, what happened here, and I think I can speak for DV, was that we had an agreement in place that if he coukd free up some cap space then I would trade him Vasquez. So he did that with the trade with So-Tex. At that point me and DV were still ironing out the details so he wanted to explore other options, hence the Jack bid while we were still negotiating, which for the record I don't condone. After he rejected my counter offer I accepted his previous proposal and announced the trade unaware of his Jack bid. This all could have been avoided if DV had told me to wait until his Jack bid was done before I announced our trade, but I guess he forgot. No ounishment is necessary, it's a bit of a gray area if you ask me with these bids flying around and PMs going back and forth, we just all need to be sharp on our numbers and timing. No harm no foul.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:44 am

nsink, I like you, but dude this "woe is me" victim thing got old a long time ok. Yes, you wore a penalty for bidding over your cap back in nineteen-dickity-three. So what? I wore the same penalty for the same thing and I got over it a long time ago. A number of others have also had that penalty, so quite trying to make out like you were hard done by in some way.

The only person who got away with it as far as I remember was Cap this year for reasons that have been covered previously. It's ok to disagree with this, but you've said your piece and going on and on about it is just annoying.

I'm not going to repeat myself except to highlight the fact that what DV did today was different to what everyone else did previously during auctions, so they aren't 1:1 comparable. If you can think of an objective penalty that is comensurate with the "crime" then you're welcome to propose it. If not, theres nothing more to discuss.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:29 pm

I'll explain exactly what happened.

Cap and I have been talking about Vazquez since Sunday and could never agree to terms. Tonight, it was either take this deal or leave it. Therefore I move Crawford for peanuts to free up the needed space after I thought Burks for Vazquez was the deal. Little did I know, He wanted me to take Royce White as well. I told him I couldn 't and I was moving on. The Jack bid then was made. About 10 minutes afterwards, he messaged me that Burks for Vazquez was a go. I should've waited to see if he changed his mind, but I didn't want to lose out on players to replace Crawford in the interim, and Jack was one of a few good fits left. I was fed up and moving on.

The Bid for Jack came when I had 3.55 mil in cap space(after the crawford deal and waiving haslem). It was a legal bid. It was before he agreed to deal me Vazquez. Now I should've just told Cap that I would confirm provided my Jack bid got beaten, but I didn 't. That 's my screw up.

I'm also not trying to skirt any rules here, and if you guys want to punish me somehow, that's fine. But the Jack bid came first, then I accepted the Vazquez deal while leading for Jack.

Nsink, I was not trying to hurt you in the Jack bidding. I was under the impression that my best offer for Vazquez wasn't good enough, and therefore I made the bid on Jack because I liked him as a Crawford replacement. Cap then backed off on his demand for Royce White and messaged me/posted the trade.

Like I said, I'll take any punishment. I helped craft these rules and I'm not trying to bend them to my liking. This was a messy situation, that I would prefer to never happen. I'd be fine with having the Jack bid stand and rescinding the Vazquez trade.
I would've just pulled my offer for Jack, but that's not an option in our setup.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Just to clarify before I do something wrong,

It says in the rules " During a season, a team without open roster spots may still bid on free agents. If such a team wins an auction it has 24 hrs to drop a player from its roster and claim the newly won player."

Are those terms the same for pre-season free agency bidding?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby scully19 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:49 pm

You're allowed to have more than 16 during the off season, but need to drop the extras before the season starts.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby silentjim » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:21 pm

DVauthrin wrote:I'll explain exactly what happened.

Cap and I have been talking about Vazquez since Sunday and could never agree to terms. Tonight, it was either take this deal or leave it. Therefore I move Crawford for peanuts to free up the needed space after I thought Burks for Vazquez was the deal. Little did I know, He wanted me to take Royce White as well. I told him I couldn 't and I was moving on. The Jack bid then was made. About 10 minutes afterwards, he messaged me that Burks for Vazquez was a go. I should've waited to see if he changed his mind, but I didn't want to lose out on players to replace Crawford in the interim, and Jack was one of a few good fits left. I was fed up and moving on.

The Bid for Jack came when I had 3.55 mil in cap space(after the crawford deal and waiving haslem). It was a legal bid. It was before he agreed to deal me Vazquez. Now I should've just told Cap that I would confirm provided my Jack bid got beaten, but I didn 't. That 's my screw up.

I'm also not trying to skirt any rules here, and if you guys want to punish me somehow, that's fine. But the Jack bid came first, then I accepted the Vazquez deal while leading for Jack.

Nsink, I was not trying to hurt you in the Jack bidding. I was under the impression that my best offer for Vazquez wasn't good enough, and therefore I made the bid on Jack because I liked him as a Crawford replacement. Cap then backed off on his demand for Royce White and messaged me/posted the trade.

Like I said, I'll take any punishment. I helped craft these rules and I'm not trying to bend them to my liking. This was a messy situation, that I would prefer to never happen. I'd be fine with having the Jack bid stand and rescinding the Vazquez trade.
I would've just pulled my offer for Jack, but that's not an option in our setup.



I think you're all good.


on an unrelated note can we try to keep bids only in player threads? helps me with the time stamps.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:52 pm

All,

I know I've shared this opinion before and I apologize for repeating myself.

As the Bird rights owner on LaMarcus Aldridge, instead of bidding:

(22.125, 20.125, 18.125, 16.125)

I have the ability to match (22, 20, 18, 16) for approximately 0.5% savings.

I can then use my newfound 0.125 cap room to absorb the hit of buying out in the preseason (it is too small to acquire a player or do a in-season buyout) of a player in their second year of two year contract (only type of contract that is eligible for buy out and is small enough) who costs 0.6 or less.

I know we discussed this ad naseum, we are not going to change it this year, and I've expressed my opinion before.

But I can't help feeling this is too inconsequential to really be useful and does not give the previous owner any real advantage.

-DR
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