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2013-2014 Season Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:25 am

scully19 wrote:I disagree a bit there. If you bid on a player, you can't win him then not pick him up and let him walk without paying. Bidding is an offer sheet, you're money is already out there, you don't get 72hours to change your mind afterwards and get off scott free.


Yeah I think this happened before and agree with scully. If you're under the 16 player max, bid on a player and don't add him for days or weeks, then you simply lose that time frame in stats, which is your loss as a manager. You still own him and need to buy him out.

If you're at 16 and win a player, the point is you have 24 hours to drop another player and get under, not 24 hours to pickup the new player. In the past this was a minor rule violation that the committee could interpret as limiting bidding for a time period, etc. If the broken rule is pointed out and not corrected in a timely fashion the rule breaker would have a stiffer penalty in place and so forth.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:02 am

Hey guys, I brought this up in the offseason but I wanted to bring it up again and see if there is any interest in the idea of being able to trade cap holds, similar to a trade exception. For instance, I have about 3.5M in cap hold because of buy outs and whatnot. I think I should be able to dump that salary if another team is willing to obtain it, say if I threw in a draft pick or some other asset. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be allowed to do this. Thoughts?

Also, what about the idea of being able to trade bird rights on an expiring contract? Obviously the bird rights don't mean that team automatically gets that player, but having their bird rights, and being able to match the highest bid, is an advantage and should be worth something, no? Let's say I can't afford to re-sign Eric Bledsoe next offseason, I would be able to get some value back for his bird rights rather than letting him walk for nothing. Thoughts on that?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:16 am

On trading cap holds, I'd need to see it work...can you post an example of what you're talking about? Because right now, it seems to me that the only beneficiary for such a trade is the team moving the hold(s). Unless you're including it as part of a deal for tangible assets (players/picks), maybe?

And I don't know how much value you can put on Bird's Rights at this point...the way I'm understanding the rules now, if a manager "matches" in an auction using Bird's Rights, other managers can still come in and outbid him. Eventually, it would come down to whether a manager thinks having the "right to match" for a certain player is as valuable as simply trying to win him outright. And in my opinion, that value isn't very much.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:22 am

Well sure, I'm not talking about one team taking on another team's cap hold for free, it woukd have to be a package deal, but let's say I offer my 3.5M cap hold + 1st round pick to a team who has more than enough cap space, that would he more than worth it for them.

And I know bird rights wouldn't be worth that much, but they would be worth something. Or let's say for RFAs I know I won't be re-signing, their RFA status is worth even more.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:52 am

The Bird Rights part is easy because we already do it. If a player is elligible to have bird rights, then they move with the player if he is traded. I wouldn't hold out much hope that this is a significant trade chip though. Someone will trade for Bledsloe if they want him for this year. Nobody in his right mind would give up more than Bledsloe is worth this year just to obtain bird rights. Bird rights is a cherry on the top type of thing- it's not the ice cream sundae.

As to the first part, I don't know that trade exception is the right term, but the idea itself is pretty clear I think. I'm ok with the idea on first glance and think it's at least worth discussing. One thing that I think we would want to avoid though is treating all cap holds as if they were some kind of consolidated loan. So if you were to be allowed to trade away a hold(s) it would have to relate to a specific player(s) previous salary. I don't like the idea of simply tacking some arbitrary amount of debt onto a trade. That would also be an accounting headache for scully.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:15 am

Sorry, I didn't explain the bird rights thing very well, I didn't mean for in-season trades, obviously a player's bird rights move with him, what I was asking about was offseason trading. For example, I keep Bledsoe all season, and can't afford him next year, so instead of letting him expire for nothing I trade his bird rights after the season ends. You might think his bird rights aren't worth much, but bird rights are a gaurantee that you have last say in a player, so what about Lebron or Durant, their bird rights would be worth a lot to someone who has enough cap space to match-bid someone to win them, right. Even a guy like Bledsoe, the right to win him outright has to be worth something to someone, so can we say that offseason bird rights and RFA option trading is allowed?

Regardig the cap holds, I disagree dasein, I think keeping track of specific players' cap holds is the nightmare, and tacking on an arbitrary amount of debt in a trade is the simpler route. Let's say I have 10M in cap holds this year, I can offer up any amount up to 10M as part of the trade, it's not too difficult to track, just add whatever salary you both agree on to one team, and subtract it from another.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:47 am

Id agree with cap on being able to trade holds, but I'd agree with dasien on players here on using actual players holds.

2nd I don't agree on trading bird rights, if u want value for a player, trade him in season. I don't see any reason a team would get Trade benefit for not resigning a player or trading him. He's a FA, you let him walk. You want value you trade him before his contract is over.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:06 am

I think you guys have it wrong regarding the cap holds. Over the course of a season one team could buy out 10 or more players, most of which would individually only account for a small % of your total cap hold, so in order to relate it to a certain player we woukd have to keep track of every single one and consider that small % a separate entity in a trade. It would be much easier just to say a total sum of salary changing hands rather than calling it "Kevin Seraphin's cap hold (.125) + Carl Landry's cap hold (.125) + Jason Terry' cap hold, etc.

I also don't agree with your take on bird rights. It's not just about one team benefitting from an expiring FA, it's also about another team gaining the right to that player in free agency. If I keep Bledsoe all season, and hold on to his bird rights, and decide not to match the highest bid, those bird rights are wasted when someone else might have wanted them, so why wouldn't we be able to move such an asset, as little value as it has? If I'm not mistaken a player is still under contract until his FA auction ends? If I owned Lebron, and knew I wasn't going to re-sign him, I would want to get something back for his bird rights, rather than just letting him expire.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:15 am

I'd always thought the theory was bird rights was to help a home team retain its players. Trading that as a right seems to be anti that theory. Was mostly my reasoning.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby nsink » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:22 am

Or to give a player more flexibility in contract negotiations, which giving more teams the right to match ( in our set up) decreases his value, since otherwise the other team would have to exceed the previous bid.
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