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2013-2014 Season Discussion

Moderators: Fenris-77, silentjim, RedHopeful, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:48 am

It's still a home team advantage, it's just a new home team, as in any in-season trading. If a player is still under contract until the FA auction, then you should be able to trade that contract (expiring) and all its rights included up until that point. Of course the value of said expiring contract is relegated to however much you think their bird rights (or RFA status) is worth, but if someone is willing to pay for that, then you should be able to sell it to them.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:41 am

Trading bird rights after the season is not something I would support. Bird rights aren't an asset in the sense that we use for trades. They are attached to a player, who is either owned or a free agent. If he's owned you can trade him. If he's a FA you have no influence over him. Also, the NBA doesn't allow this, which isn't necessarily a strong argument but in this case I'm not seeing a good reason to do it differently. I can see that Cap is trying to work it so he can get something for nothing here, but bird rights are strictly a use it or loose it type of deal.

On the cap holds...go check out the spreadsheet. The cost attributed to dropped players is clearly listed for each team in a section underneath the active roster, and feed through to the bottom line (cap space). We've been doing this for years, so don't try and make out that it's difficult. If dead salary where allowed to be traded it would be simple to move a row between teams in exactly the same way as when active players are traded. What would be a pain in the ass is when Cap comes along and coughs up a pick in exchange for 5M of cap space, and scully has to track where all that cap hold came from. I don't want to get sidetracked by the accounting though as it's a secondary point. The main reason I don't like this is that has no sensible associated narrative. When you sign a player, you are guaranteeing him some money. This is a fundamental part of the SCL. If you then drop him, you still have to pay him some amount as laid out in our rules. Trading the remainant of a particular player's contract is something real that I can understand. What does the cap hold represent if it just becomes one big amorphous debt? No sir, I don't like it.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby silentjim » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:03 pm

I could see trading waived players since I think it's a) beneficial to both teams involved, b) should be easy to track (move waived player from one team to another in the spreadsheet, and c) it doesn't involve anyone ever going over the 75M salary cap.

Trading birds rights during the off season isn't something I'd support. It just logically doesn't make sense. That player isn't on your roster anymore technically, so trading him or his rights is just backwards. I can see the real life equivalent being the sign and trade. If you have birds rights to a player sign him, then trade him. We've already established birds rights aren't worth much to begin with so I'm not sure this is something even worth discussing.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:05 pm

No worries, I am fine with whatever the league decides, just thought I'd bring up the suggestions. And I'm really not trying to better myself and get something for nothing, there is a flip side to that coin, in that there is another team that agrees to a trade because it helps themselves. You guys think BR are so meaningless, and I would agree for someone like Tyler Hansbrough, but are you telling me you wouldn't give up a 1st round pick at least for the right to claim Durant for yourself? I would he happy to do that (if I had the cap room), and the Durant owner should be able to cash in on that if he so chooses. What it really boils down to is, when does a contract run out, or when does a FA become a FA? Is it the day after the NBA championship is won, or is it the day the FA auctions start? If it is the day the auctions start, and I still own that player and his BR until then, then I should be allowed to trade him.

You make a good point about the cap holds, about listing individual penalties, but just because you trade a contract, or contract obligation in this case, doesn't mean that contract obligation isn't still kept, it's just kept by a different manager. Maybe it's easier to just add a waived player's penalty into a lump sum? Either way I think it should be allowed. Starting now! :)
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:03 pm

Damn skippy I wouldn't trade a 1st round pick for Durant's bird rights. A pick equals a guaranteed young player with a shot at being a star. Bird Rights equal guaranteed nothing. You're either seriously undervaluing picks or overvaluing bird rights if you think that's a good deal.

And in practice, a player becomes a FA at the end of our fantasy playoffs. Note that this happens after the trade deadline, so trading players just before your last game isn't an option either.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby scully19 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:02 pm

Bird rights are essentially useless. If you are thinking they are worth more than that then you do not fully understand the rules of this league or bird rights in general. If you got Kevin Durant's bird rights you would not in any way have an advantage in bidding, you would still have to outpay someone else, you could just frontload a players contract more than someone else slightly and cripple your future years cap space. That's essentially a best case scenario for bird rights. You can still easily get outbid by anyone else.

As for trading waived contracts I'm on board for basically all the reasons already said (ease of transactions and tracking).

As for trading cap space, it doesn't make sense to have someone give you space, only relieve you of contracts with their space so that you now have more IMO.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:49 pm

Hey guys, I just wanted to confirm whether we are allowed to trade cap holds yet or not? Dasein tells me we will probably start it next year but I don't see any reason why we can't just make the rule change now, considering everyone is on board with it, and the fact that I did bring it up during the offseason.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:11 pm

capoltorta wrote: Dasein tells me we will probably start it next year


Just to be clear, what I said was "assuming we change the rule, it won't happen before next season". Bit of a difference there.

Reason being of course is we tend to avoid rules chances mid-season.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:29 pm

So what does that mean, that we will be voting on it again later? I only ask because it will affect my trade talks this season one way or another, and since we haven't had any objections so far, can I move to implement it now, or is that the final say?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby silentjim » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:35 pm

capoltorta wrote:So what does that mean, that we will be voting on it again later? I only ask because it will affect my trade talks this season one way or another, and since we haven't had any objections so far, can I move to implement it now, or is that the final say?


Yeah no rule changes in the middle of the season. :-)
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