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2013-2014 Season Discussion

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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:18 pm

Speaking of rooks, very anxious for ping pong results :-D
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby scully19 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:42 pm

RocketsDWM wrote:I agree with this. And the young players (albeit in a different sport but this is especially true in MLB) are apt to sign those deals due to injury concerns. Take the guaranteed $ and then set yourself up for a huge payday down the road. I think X3 their base salary is a sizeable contract extension and the players would (in "real life") take that deal.

Not when they can make more.

All that rule would do is set people up to go hard for draft picks and have the situations where those who draft the LeBron/KD's from draft will have them at a massive deal and set up an unfair advantage, thus causing much more tanking for people to fight back the only possible way, get higher draft picks so they too can get a LeBron/KD on a guaranteed lower value contract than their worth. This puts too much emphasis and power on drafting and I for one don't want a league setup to promote tanking.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:03 am

How many KD's/Lebron's are there? They are the exceptions. We are talking about a very small number of rooks that would be handed these extensions.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby scully19 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:18 am

Yes and no, and those exceptions will dominate the league when they happen. Again, look at the standings for the past few years. Every year Rob and DC at the top. While they do a good job everywhere, it's in large part due to the fact that they have LeBron and KD at a discount. Giving out more discounts to star players would only cause the fix we made removing the cap limit to be reinstated in a different way.

Really the only advantage to doing this rule would be to give out discounts to teams. Why would anyone want to do that?

Also look further down the list. You are assuming that anyone drafted 1-2 would be those handed these contracts, but fail to realize that people down the draft board will be making less, and thus 3X their current deal would actually be quite small. Anyone drafted second round could be extended for 1.5M without ever going to the group bid. 4th pick would be 12M which is likely borderline for someone drafted in this position and could be good value, 6-10 would be 9M. Anyone that plays better than expected is now a steal at this position. If I look back at last years draft and pick someone entirely (not) at random. Hmm... MCW for instance. He has performed better than anyone expected and is outplaying his rookie scale contract in his rookie year. Continued improvement, should he have some, would make him a likely candidate for steal at his 3M final year, putting his at 9M extension. Never mind the top pick going at 5.5M final year is then extended at 16.5M great, lower than the old cap we found to be unfair.

This is also all beyond the point. Why do we want to build in places for people to get discounts on players with little involvement of their own. A player that exceeds expectations at the 6-10 spot isn't super rare (even in this terrible draft year I found one rather easy) and is also likely not "a good job of drafting by a GM", but Luck.

Why would we want to purposely create an imbalance in the league?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:35 am

This is just one of those things that doesn't translate from real life to a fantasy game. And anyway, if you match your rookie in his RFA auction, you get him for 3+4 years which is plenty reward for drafting well.

We just changed the rules to prevent teams from having unfettered access to stars in perpetuity. We're not going to bring in a new rules which brings that back.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby TheRobSays » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:14 pm

Why not have the current owner be able to match for players who they own the rights to in an extended RFA process? You could use something like a qualifying offer (say minimum 2x existing salary) as the baseline for what the current owner must pay - this way they cant just "wait" it out.

I don't think this would change much having seen the really good players get bid up and still having the choice to match, many who drafted have given up on their players as they were overpaid in that managers opinion.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:53 am

TheRobSays wrote:Why not have the current owner be able to match for players who they own the rights to in an extended RFA process? You could use something like a qualifying offer (say minimum 2x existing salary) as the baseline for what the current owner must pay - this way they cant just "wait" it out.

I don't think this would change much having seen the really good players get bid up and still having the choice to match, many who drafted have given up on their players as they were overpaid in that managers opinion.


I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you give an example?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby scully19 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:11 am

Do you basically mean RFA for guys who aren't RFA but just guys you have rights to?
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:49 am

First of all, I think drafting well has a little more to do than just luck. There is a luck factor sure, but it wasn't a coincidence that I traded for MCW specifically and he ended up being a good pick. Second of all, at 9M per year he wouldn't exactly be a huge bargain, that's still more than a lot of top PGs are making right now. Third of all, as mentioned, LBJ/KD players are far and few between, and players like Anthony Bennett being high picks is much more prevalent, and those players surely wouldn't warrant a 3x extension.

In most cases the players we draft dont develop into valuable fantasy assets until at least 3-4 years into their NBA career. You might draft a 19 year old like Giannis Antetonmkpo and sit on him for the entire duration of his contract without him giving you anything, then when he turns 24 and finally starts producing he goes up for auction and someone else prices you out, so essentially you wasted your draft pick on him and waited for him to develop for 4 years only to have someone else scoop him up when he actually becomes useful. That is the more important issue to me. Whoever gets Wiggins this year is only guaranteed 4 years with him, yes they have the ability to match but what if someone else offers up 40M for him and they can't afford him? They might have tanked their season to get him or traded tons of assets away to get him and just when he enters his prime they lose him for nothing.

Of course it's hard to simulate players' wants and needs in fantasy, and if/when they would want to resign with a team, but there are rules that we can put I to place that can generalize the process a bit and introduce a 'loyalty factor' and add some team options. I think even a 2 year contract extension option as high as 3x base salary is better than nothing. When NBA teams draft a player they fully expect that player to play for their team for a minimum of 5-6 years at a fairly reasonable price, and there is added incentive for that player to resign with them long term, but here all we get is 4 years guaranteed and the ability to match, doesn't seem like enough to me. There should be a lot of stock put into draft picks, it's the absolute best way an NBA team can get better, and I don’t think it's 'unfair' for those who draft guys like KD or Wiggins to end up being successful in the long term, that's the name of the game, not to mention they probably had to suck before that. It happens all the time in real life.

Just my 2c.
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Re: 2013-2014 Season Discussion

Postby dasein » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:39 am

capoltorta wrote: Whoever gets Wiggins this year is only guaranteed 4 years with him, yes they have the ability to match but what if someone else offers up 40M for him and they can't afford him?


And we all know who that "someone" would be. Fortunately he'll still be capped out by the time Wiggins is up for grabs. :-D

Seriously, the way we do it now is really very similar to the NBA. Both systems have the rookie contract with a home-team advantage for the 2nd contract. The lengths of our contracts and the NBA analogues are also similar. Once it comes time for a player's 3rd contract however, it's all about who gives the most money and the best chance to win for NBA players. Home-team advantage is much weaker in the rules and the importance of loyalty/inertia is a distant 3rd at this point in a players career. We've seen this over and over again.

While I like the way we do it now, I do have some sympathy for the idea of "milking" rookie contracts a little more. That said, the types of things being talked about in the last few posts don't work for me at all. To me, qualifying offers and whatnot are inelegant and kinda arbitrary. I'd have more sympathy for extending rookie contracts by a year, which is more in keeping with the NBA.

According to the first article I googled (below) NBA 1st rounders are guaranteed for 2 years, and the team can then choose to extend the contract for a further 1 or 2 years. Thus, a rookie deal for a good player will run for 4 years. So if we want to be more like the NBA and strengthen rookie deals, then increasing the rookie contract by a year is the simple way to do it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajesso ... contracts/
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