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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:49 pm

I'll be honest the selfish part of me wants to say no and keep Durant at $20 forever. :D

But if I try to be objective removing max salaires makes sense and I don't have any real objections over it.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:33 am

All,

I do think a higher max salary (like $30M) or no max salary makes sense as it creates a more level playing field.

That said, I do see how it is unfair to certain current max salary contract holders, particularly for KD and LBJ where being able to renew at a $20M max holds the most value.

Clearly one thing we can do to offset this a very little bit is to make the decision well in advance so those folks have time to prep for it.

We could consider whether to offer anybody who has a $20M expiring max some compensation for the rule change i.e. an extra first round pick at the end of the first round, although this feels like a bad precedent, ad-hoc rulemaking, etc. etc.

Net-net, I am for the change, but also view it as unfair (odd contradiction I know) to a few people most directly the LBJ and KD holders.

-DR
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:46 am

silentjim wrote: It's would you rather have Jimmy Butlers and Eric Bledsoes at .25M and their production or Lebron's at 20M? Hard to state one is better.


That's easily solved. Offer the Lebron owner a swap with your Bledsloe at 0.25M. I'm pretty sure I know what he says. ;-)

The best players are worth their weight in gold and always will be. If we had a snake draft with all the current contracts on offer, LBJ and Durant should still be the 1st two off the board, regardless of what bargains are out there.

Da Ruhl wrote:
We could consider whether to offer anybody who has a $20M expiring max some compensation for the rule change i.e. an extra first round pick at the end of the first round, although this feels like a bad precedent, ad-hoc rulemaking, etc. etc.


Four years with one of the elite players in the game at a 50% discount isn't enough compensation? Nope. No need for this sort of tomfoolery.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:48 am

I wouldn't mind seeing the "no-max" idea put in place. Let the market dictate what the top tier players are worth.

But I also wonder how the market will dictate the lower to mid level players - guys who fall in the 5M to 15M range.

The way it's set up now, max guys go straight to 20M, then we decide which of the middle guys are worth 5M, 10M, 15M, etc. And more often than not, we over spend on those guys (especially if we really want them on our rosters). If the market dictated that LBJ and Durant and a few others are worth 30, 35 or 40M, and the lower to mid level prices stayed as they have been recently over the past few seasons, then it makes sense to me. I can see how things become balanced out and more proportionate.

However, if those same lower to mid level contracts instead start creeping higher and higher (meaning the over-payers are paying even more than before), then we have an issue - inflation kicks in on guys who aren't really worth what they're getting. We know that some managers are still going to pay whatever they can to get certain players (as we've seen even this last off-season). So then the issue becomes "how can we change the buyout or drop rule to get out of a poorly structured contract quicker, regardless of the penalty." Or even worse, we come across the scenario of "I spent 30M on one top tier guy, but over spent on my mid level guys cause they fit my build, and now I'm at the cap limit and short 3 players for the minimum 11 for the season."

Now, I'm not saying those last two points will actually come up, and I realize that second one there is more about being smart with your money than anything else. But I guess what I'm really getting at is as much as I like the idea, I wonder how big of a can of worms are we really opening if we move this direction. :-o
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:51 am

Regarding SoTex's concern, I believe that having no max salary will actually help avoid the price creep effect. It sounds counter-intuitive at first but think about how the current system works.

I don't mean to bang on Westbrook, but he makes for a good example. Say he is worth 15M. If so, then all bidding up to that point is reasonable. Some manager may think it's worth overpaying by a million or two because what the hell, it's not that much in the scheme of things. This line of thinking is also defensible. But once you're up to 16 or 17M, you're just a hop skip and a jump away from the 20M max. At this point, a manager who knows he has the tie breaker in his back pocket can say bugger it, pay an extra 3 and it's game over. What I'm saying is, the current 20M max is so close to the market value of the 2nd-3rd tier players, that when combined with the tie-breaker rules it can be defensible (if not totally rational) to pay that little bit more when you know it will give you the win.

Get rid of that 20M ceiling, and I bet you'll find managers start to letting players walk once the price starts creeping over the players worth.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:24 pm

While I understand the advantages of no max salary, I do like having a max, as this league was set up to mirror the NBA as much as possible. It seems to me that having a max (20, 25, 30) makes sense in following how the NBA works. In the NBA there are cases where a player receieves muliple "max" offers and has to make a decision. As it stands now we mirror that very accurately. If we are just going the route of a normal fantasy league then going no max makes a lot of sense as a normal auction league. If we are still trying to mirror the NBA as closely as possible it doesn't make sense to go no max.

If we looked at upping the max salary next season or the season after that I think that is reasonable. It allows Lebron/Durant/insert player name here to plan accordingly for the max salary change through trades, dropping players, etc. You may see top tier players being moved during the last year of their contract more often to pick up assets since players know it will be a lot more challenging to keep a top player in the FA process.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:45 pm

I echo hi chi's sentiments. Look, yes, some players are worth more in a free market system. But this league was based off the real NBA and they have a max salary. Not really keen on turning this into more of a standard fantasy auction league.

As for people never leaving their teams, well how is that any different than a good team in the NBA holding onto their stars while bad teams/financially mismanaged ones could lose theirs to better teams.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:00 pm

DVauthrin wrote:I echo hi chi's sentiments. Look, yes, some players are worth more in a free market system. But this league was based off the real NBA and they have a max salary. Not really keen on turning this into more of a standard fantasy auction league.

As for people never leaving their teams, well how is that any different than a good team in the NBA holding onto their stars while bad teams/financially mismanaged ones could lose theirs to better teams.


agreed. Maybe an increase in max makes the most sense for all involved
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby TheRobSays » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Word! Again - this is why I spent my season 1 money on LBJ. I think he is the best player in the NBA and felt so at that time too. So you blow your load and secure his rights so you can build around him. Others did the same with different guys. Would be very unfair for this to change mid-stream. I will live with whatever the league decided as this is a fun league to be in but I still believe it is unfair.

Put it like this, I finish second with a good solid team built around LBJ. In the off season he is FA and I have enough room to sign him to SAY $22M. Someone else has $50M of room so they offer $33, $30, $27. I cannot match without gutting my team and LBJ goes to the other team even though they have a shitty team otherwise. Real life? Probably not. Fair to me, no.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:19 am

silentjim wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:I echo hi chi's sentiments. Look, yes, some players are worth more in a free market system. But this league was based off the real NBA and they have a max salary. Not really keen on turning this into more of a standard fantasy auction league.

As for people never leaving their teams, well how is that any different than a good team in the NBA holding onto their stars while bad teams/financially mismanaged ones could lose theirs to better teams.


agreed. Maybe an increase in max makes the most sense for all involved


Eh, I'm gonna disagree with DV here. Yes it was originally set up to mirror the NBA, and that almost led to the league's death because the rules were so convoluted that nobody could be bothered managing them. That's why we cut away a lot of the fat a couple of seasons ago. Dropping the max doesn't change anything more drastically than what we've already done. It also cuts away a whole layer of arbitrary in the form of the tie-breakers, which were always problematic.

And do I really need to list of all the ways this league is not like the NBA already? The reality is that we are a fantasy league. The thing that makes it non-standard is the fact that we have contracts at all, and that they last for multiple years. Having a max salary does not add much flavour.

And the way it's different to people never leaving their teams in the NBA DV, is that in real life the rules don't dictate that they do so. I'll also point out that rarely happens anymore. From this generation we'll have the Spurs guys, Kobe, probably Dirk, maybe Wade. That's about it.

Ok, end of rant. Like I said earlier. Increasing the max from 20 to 30 solves one problem, but we have the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by dropping the max entirely.
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