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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:47 am

Fenris-77 wrote:That's just silly. If you're going to pick a number so high you think no one will ever pay it, just go no max and not worry about tie-break rules at all.

I think THAT'S the point dasein's been trying to make here... }:-)
silentjim wrote:If we're removing max salary because tie breakers suck, why not remove/fix tie breakers since that's the real problem?

I think that was addressed before as well...I know from talking with dasein, he's mentioned before that fixing the whole tie-breaker issue was like trying to be fast in a pool full of tar...at best! I'm sure if it meant just removing the tie-breakers all-together just to save weeks of going around in circles trying to figure out a "fairer" system then what we currently have in place, he'd be all for it.

Again, I like the "no-max" idea...but as long as we can vote on something and get it in place, whether it be this year or next, I'll be fine with it. ;-)
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:51 am

silentjim wrote: If we're removing max salary because tie breakers suck, why not remove/fix tie breakers since that's the real problem?


You can't remove tie breakers without having no max. Otherwise, what happens when 2 players offer the max?

You can't fix tie breakers because of the nature of tie breakers. We've spent I don't know how many hours on this, and the bottom line is any set of rules you can come up with is arbitrary. Throwing a dice is probably the only fair tie break. Anything else we do would just be loading the dice.

silentjim wrote: I know we discussed certain players surpassing their contracts by a decent margin, but isn't that the point of this league. to get more bang for your buck?


Sure, when you get it as a result of finding market inefficiencies.

When you get "bank for buck" on the top players mandated by league rules- not so much. :-t
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:32 am

Just put it to a vote

No max
Keep as is
Max salary at 35 or 40 million, pick the number, I don't care.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:57 pm

I agree that it is time to vote. But I think there needs to be a discussion over the implementation of any changes (multiple options have been thrown around). While I will think long and hard on how to vote, how it is implemented will certainly effect my decision.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:59 pm

Technically even with no max under the current rules owner(s) can make a tying bid if it maxes out their $75 hard cap, so you'd still need some form of tiebreaker just in case, albeit to be used quite rarely. I do agree with dasein that random makes the most sense (simple and fair).

But at that point, if we have a very high or no max and a random tiebreak, the only thing Bird rights convey is the ability to bid a 15% increase on non-max contracts. Seems to me they are more trouble than they are worth if they are that ineffectual, so we either strengthen them or delete them. I think strengthening Bird rights a bit helps move us farther from being an auction league and helps offset some of the impact of the change for the owners who have been strategizing around the $20 max.

So, in my view, max + tiebreak + Bird rights are all tied together. I prefer a cap around $35, tiebreak done randomly, and Bird rights that are more useful (I like the idea that the Bird rights owner gets "extra credit" in his/her bid).

I'll also admit I have a bias towards preferring a simple set of rules that make for complex strategy vs. a complex set of rules that make for simple strategy.

But I'm happy with pretty much all the options that have been discussed including leaving things the same.

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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:31 pm

Da Ruhl wrote:Technically even with no max under the current rules owner(s) can make a tying bid if it maxes out their $75 hard cap, so you'd still need some form of tiebreaker just in case, albeit to be used quite rarely. I do agree with dasein that random makes the most sense (simple and fair).



Quite rarely? :-D

Giving $70M for 1 player would be absolutely, positively, 100% coco-bananas insane. Nobody would try that, let alone two so I think it's pretty safe to not have a tie breaker under No Max. In fact if someone did try that they'd probably be asking for a ban. }:-)

BTW, feel free to do some brainstorming on the bird rights over at the Official Rules thread. Just keep in mind that your previous suggestions were considered to be overpowered.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:37 pm

dasein wrote:
Da Ruhl wrote:Technically even with no max under the current rules owner(s) can make a tying bid if it maxes out their $75 hard cap, so you'd still need some form of tiebreaker just in case, albeit to be used quite rarely. I do agree with dasein that random makes the most sense (simple and fair).



Quite rarely? :-D

Giving $70M for 1 player would be absolutely, positively, 100% coco-bananas insane. Nobody would try that, let alone two so I think it's pretty safe to not have a tie breaker under No Max. In fact if someone did try that they'd probably be asking for a ban. }:-)

Ok skippy, ya got me...was planning that big $70 Million dollar take-over on LBJ as soon as his contract came up! :-B :-b ;-)
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:52 pm

I still think we need a max. I think no max will just end badly for this league. People quitting when they realize they can't win with a 50M player for 4 years etc. You can't undo or trade a player for that contract, or buy them out.

I think the tie breakers needs to be fixed in coordination with this.

So, my vote is for a max salary that is higher than our current (I'll say 40M).
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:26 pm

silentjim wrote:I still think we need a max. I think no max will just end badly for this league. People quitting when they realize they can't win with a 50M player for 4 years etc. You can't undo or trade a player for that contract, or buy them out.

I think the tie breakers needs to be fixed in coordination with this.

So, my vote is for a max salary that is higher than our current (I'll say 40M).


And 4 years at 40M will go much better? I get where you're coming from, but i think that a bit of education about player worth will go a long way, and actually make for a stronger league than legislated protection.

Anyway, enough talk. Lets just get our vote on. I'll take you and So-tex as nominations 2 and 3 for 40M as the max on the ballot. What say you for the accompanying tie breaker? Random draw? Regular season finish? I'd go with the first if I was operating in god mode. :-b
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:45 pm

dasein wrote:
silentjim wrote:I still think we need a max. I think no max will just end badly for this league. People quitting when they realize they can't win with a 50M player for 4 years etc. You can't undo or trade a player for that contract, or buy them out.

I think the tie breakers needs to be fixed in coordination with this.

So, my vote is for a max salary that is higher than our current (I'll say 40M).


And 4 years at 40M will go much better? I get where you're coming from, but i think that a bit of education about player worth will go a long way, and actually make for a stronger league than legislated protection.

Anyway, enough talk. Lets just get our vote on. I'll take you and So-tex as nominations 2 and 3 for 40M as the max on the ballot. What say you for the accompanying tie breaker? Random draw? Regular season finish? I'd go with the first if I was operating in god mode. :-b


Season standings are tough, as obviously a few us stink, but could be in a nice rebuilding mode with a chance to dominant. That being said, I do kind of like the random draw aspect. The problem with us trying to figure out an elaborate tie breaker system, is that we "calculate" and thus know what it takes technically to land a player. Maybe we could institute a lottery system like we do with draft results. Keeping in mind that there could be more than a two way tie. Half balls to each in a tie way tie, Third in three way etc. If the max is 40M we don't have to worry about teams like me who have a crap ton of money, because I can't afford 80M and no one ever could.
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