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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:55 pm

Done! We'll make it random draw then. I still don't anticipate it being needed, but there are websites that can be used to do this in a transparent way.

I'll start the voting thread and send out an email to kick this thing off.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:49 pm

dasein/all,

as I understand (from the rules):

"- Teams can match previous bids only if the salary laws prevent them from improving on the leading offer, i.e. the contract is currently a max offer, or the bidding team is at its cap limit."

So if (during the season for example), one team bids $2 for a free agent and another team only has $73 in budget already, they are allowed to match the $2 bid. Of course, the first team might just choose to bid higher, but they might not (and if they were at $73 or (close enough given the minimum increment), as well they couldn't). Please tell me if I've misunderstood here.

That is the scenario I think we might "quite rarely" need the tiebreak; I agree a $70 bid is flat-out nuts. :-)

On Bird rights, seems (to me) more trouble than it is worth to have the rule and track them if (assuming we have a random tiebreak) their only feature is allowing max 15% increments instead of max 10%. That said, it's not a big deal and if folks don't like the idea of strengthening them but feel it is important to keep them, I'm perfectly glad to roll with it.

-DR
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:54 pm

Da Ruhl wrote:dasein/all,

as I understand (from the rules):

"- Teams can match previous bids only if the salary laws prevent them from improving on the leading offer, i.e. the contract is currently a max offer, or the bidding team is at its cap limit."

So if (during the season for example), one team bids $2 for a free agent and another team only has $73 in budget already, they are allowed to match the $2 bid. Of course, the first team might just choose to bid higher, but they might not (and if they were at $73 or (close enough given the minimum increment), as well they couldn't). Please tell me if I've misunderstood here.


This is correct, you can match a bid only if you don't have the cap space to beat it. If you can beat it, then you must follow the minimum increment bids based on the salary size/length.

In the event of a match (at any salary) then we would implement the tie breaker, which at this point is being discussed as random only.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:10 pm

Can someone offer me evidence that Lebron James or Kevin Durant are the most valuable players in our league per dollar than everyone else by a longshot?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:41 pm

I was just trying to do some math myself. Based on our current salaries, the players producing the best value per dollar spent are: (I eyeballed and skipped some players)

1. Tim Duncan (5M)
2. James Harden (8M)
3. Kevin Durant (20M)
4. Anderson Varejao (5M)
5. Larry Sanders (3.6M)
6. Amir Johnson (.25M)
7. Shawn Marion (1.75M)
8. Tony Parker (4.8M)
9. Lebron James (20M)
10. Jose Calderon (2M)

So my issue with the max salary discussion becomes, are we penalizing the teams who have superstars on their teams by increasing the max, even though only two of the top 10 players are max salaried? Is someone going to complain if Victor Oladipo turns out to be a fantasy stud that rookie contracts should be (10M, 10M, 10M)???

In the end is our tie breaker system the one thing that is broken?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Your conclusions will vary a bit based on how you calculate values, I think. Specifically, in BBM format, whether you enter # of players / team as 8, 16, or something in between. The smaller the team size you put in, the more you will find LBJ and KD are dominant. I'm not sure there is an indisputable right answer for what team size should be entered.

At 8 players / team, I see KD / LBJ worth $50 / $42 and see the max as the problem.

At 16 players / team, I see KD / LBJ worth $21 / $19 and don't see much of a problem at all.

At many settings in between I see the problem as the interaction of a few issues:

- Low max gives KD and LBJ unusually high value
- Tiebreak gives current owners neverending claim to that value even after expiry
- Weak Bird rights mean nobody else has any value to expiring contracts which unbalances things even more

There are other good contracts out there, but most are not as obvious/riskless *at contract signing* and none has the ability to ensure value even after expiry.

Just my 2c.

-DR
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Da Ruhl wrote:Your conclusions will vary a bit based on how you calculate values, I think. Specifically, in BBM format, whether you enter # of players / team as 8, 16, or something in between. The smaller the team size you put in, the more you will find LBJ and KD are dominant. I'm not sure there is an indisputable right answer for what team size should be entered.

At 8 players / team, I see KD / LBJ worth $50 / $42 and see the max as the problem.

At 16 players / team, I see KD / LBJ worth $21 / $19 and don't see much of a problem at all.

At many settings in between I see the problem as the interaction of a few issues:

- Low max gives KD and LBJ unusually high value
- Tiebreak gives current owners neverending claim to that value even after expiry
- Weak Bird rights mean nobody else has any value to expiring contracts which unbalances things even more

There are other good contracts out there, but most are not as obvious/riskless *at contract signing* and none has the ability to ensure value even after expiry.

Just my 2c.

-DR


I went with 16 teams, 12 players, and 73M assuming everyone was carrying 4 bench players at roughly .5M each that either weren't playing or able to subbed in etc. ;-D

Dwight Howard and Kevin Love were the worst FYI.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:50 pm

"I went with 16 teams, 12 players, and 73M assuming everyone was carrying 4 bench players at roughly .5M each that either weren't playing or able to subbed in etc.

Dwight Howard and Kevin Love were the worst FYI."

Seems like a very logical way of doing it - I might have to mess with this a little bit. I've been using between 8 and 16 but hadn't thought to lower the total salary cap in proportion to small contracts for players under 16. That makes a lot of sense and is something I should add - thanks!

To state the overly obvious, D12's value changes dramatically in a punt FT% build and Love had all the injuries last season. So I don't really think the conclusion that either of them is the worst contract is necessarily really right, although I'm sure it is numerically accurate.

Thaddy Young looks pretty good I suspect in your settings, especially if you figure in that he has two years left. Possibly the best contract in the league IMO. :-)

-DR
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby TheRobSays » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:54 pm

I would be very interested to see in your rankings what a salary of $25M or $30M means to Kevin Durant or LBJ? How far down the list does this push them?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Da Ruhl wrote:"I went with 16 teams, 12 players, and 73M assuming everyone was carrying 4 bench players at roughly .5M each that either weren't playing or able to subbed in etc.

Dwight Howard and Kevin Love were the worst FYI."

Seems like a very logical way of doing it - I might have to mess with this a little bit. I've been using between 8 and 16 but hadn't thought to lower the total salary cap in proportion to small contracts for players under 16. That makes a lot of sense and is something I should add - thanks!

To state the overly obvious, D12's value changes dramatically in a punt FT% build and Love had all the injuries last season. So I don't really think the conclusion that either of them is the worst contract is necessarily really right, although I'm sure it is numerically accurate.

Thaddy Young looks pretty good I suspect in your settings, especially if you figure in that he has two years left. Possibly the best contract in the league IMO. :-)

-DR



He was 11th. ;-D
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