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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:40 am

I don't see what the problem is with the tiebreaker system honestly. It's pretty much never used as far as I can tell due to the bird rights thing but I like the idea of it fine (and did since I first read it) and don't see why it's a problem that needs fixing. When it kinda came up earlier I was even in favor of adjusting the bird rights so that an actual tiebreaker system beyond that came into play more often, and still am.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:58 am

dcdoorknob wrote:I don't see what the problem is with the tiebreaker system honestly. It's pretty much never used as far as I can tell due to the bird rights thing but I like the idea of it fine (and did since I first read it) and don't see why it's a problem that needs fixing. When it kinda came up earlier I was even in favor of adjusting the bird rights so that an actual tiebreaker system beyond that came into play more often, and still am.


As it stands, it's an elaborate way of saying the incumbent team gets to keep whichever max players it wants. It's also a whole bunch of work (previously done by me) that in my opinion we'd be better off replacing with no max. My point is, no matter what set of rules you come up with, you're locking in an arbitrary bias when it comes to who gets to have the max players.

It wasn't used last year because no max contracts were handed out. The year before it was used plenty. The bird rights thing is part of the tiebreaker btw.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby scully19 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:08 am

Sorry been away, my chime in:

This rule obviously needs to go.
1. Those saying we need to mimic NBA, stars don't always stay in one place either and we basically have them locked in at that spot this way. Every single NBA player is up for grabs minus the top 5 say. The guys everyone wants no one new can get.
2. The tie-breaker system gets way too convoluted to use.
3. I appologize Rob, as I'm clearly outing you. I understand your position, obviously you want to keep your player and we get that, but saying it is unfair is bullocks. You had LeBron for 6 years. We can call the first year a wash because you had to overpay for him, that means you had the best fantasy player in the league for 5 years...at a DISCOUNTED rate. Do you really think it is unfair that someone else get a turn (possibly, since you can still bid). Really you might just have to pay 5 mill extra a year or something. This isn't exactly a ravaging here, but it allows all teams an equal shot at him. Seriously, you have LeBron for the next 2 years for sure at a discounted rate, you go straight through his prime on your team and there is nothing we can do about it. Don't you think it's about time you say 'That was fun, I got lucky and made the right move early to lock him in for 4 years and 20 mill, but it is a huge advantage.'

All this is in saying that I realized early, as I'm sure we all did, that max players don't leave the original team that signs them in this way, so I traded the farm for rookies, in the hopes that I can get one from the draft, which I seemed to think was the only way to get NEW max players, which make a team (quick look on Yahoo shows Durants team #1 in the league, and LeBrons finished #2). This isn't a revelation, and it seems like a balance of power is in order. This drastically changes my plans too since I remortgaged to go for new max players and don't really have all that competitive of a team (hoping for somewhere in the middle).

Perhaps an option to try to give the retaining team SOME advantage, would be to allow the person with bird rights (this goes for all bird right owners, thus giving it a purpose as well) to match during the bidding process. They don't have the same as a RFA who waits until it ends to match and doesn't need to bid, but they have to bid a 'match' bid during the 24h clock. This gives the current owner a slight advantage, which I think mimics the real NBA as most players I think if given the same price would choose the same team, but it also ultimately forces them to keep on bidding and have their intentions known during the bidding process.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:11 am

dasein wrote:The bird rights thing is part of the tiebreaker btw.


Right, I'm aware of that. The bird rights thing is basically the first tiebreaker, which means the rest of it seldom/never gets used. I think throwing out that first TB (bird rights) and then incorporating bird rights into the next TB after it (where you add up the points for star players at other positions and subtract for a start player at the same position) by just giving an extra point for bird rights when you tally all that up... that would be something I'd support I think. My point was I kinda like the idea of the TB system if we tweaked it so that the bird rights don't almost always decide everything and we actually used the other stuff sometimes. But that said I really don't know how much work it is so if it is too much then far be it for me to volunteer someone else for too much work.

But if I could pick for myself I'd be in favor of raising (not eliminating) max salary and then tweaking the TB rules.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:33 am

dcdoorknob wrote:But if I could pick for myself I'd be in favor of raising (not eliminating) max salary and then tweaking the TB rules.

You have no idea how many times we've been the tie-break rules trying to tweak them. It's a nightmare. %-6 Anything that really 'works' is insanely complicated.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:41 am

I'll put it this way dc. I haven't made the star player list yet because I'm hoping I won't have to. And this from a guy who does his own preseason projections. :-b

I'll put it another way too. If we didn't need have the tiebreakers, the rules would be reduced by 25% on a word count basis. ;-)

and @ scully- well said sir! Well said!

and @ Fenris- yup! ;-D
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:44 am

Fenris-77 wrote:
dcdoorknob wrote:But if I could pick for myself I'd be in favor of raising (not eliminating) max salary and then tweaking the TB rules.

You have no idea how many times we've been the tie-break rules trying to tweak them. It's a nightmare. %-6 Anything that really 'works' is insanely complicated.


Well the tweak I'm suggesting is simple and specific. Do away with the TB that is bird rights. This is TB #2, but TB#1 is just # of years., Then add 1 point for bird rights to the tally done in the following TB, TB#3 (with the points for star players). Keep everything else the same as it is currently.

It's not so much max salary discussion really anymore so sorry for the derail.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Da Ruhl » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:35 am

We could ditch max salary and also somewhat strengthen bird rights - perhaps an owner with Bird rights only owes 95% of their bid (basically they get a 5% edge in the bidding war) or perhaps Bird rights and RFA are merged and both allow the current owner a "last look" to match without bidding.

This would:

- Fix the KD/LBJ issues we've all discussed
- Eliminate the complicated and burdenful (to Dasein at least ;-D ) tiebreaker system
- Reduce the earlier discussed drop-and-resign-injured-player issue (wouldn't be less likely to throw away Bird rights if they have value)
- Partially address/alleviate Robsays owner's concerns

To my mind, the combination of no max + stronger Bird rightswould be more fair on an ongoing basis, more interesting, make the ruleset simpler, and make the fairness issues around the no max rule smaller.

Just my 2c though and mindful I haven't actually gone through the FA process.

-DR
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:25 am

Da Ruhl wrote:We could ditch max salary and also somewhat strengthen bird rights - perhaps an owner with Bird rights only owes 95% of their bid (basically they get a 5% edge in the bidding war) or perhaps Bird rights and RFA are merged and both allow the current owner a "last look" to match without bidding.

To my mind, the combination of no max + stronger Bird rightswould be more fair on an ongoing basis, more interesting, make the ruleset simpler, and make the fairness issues around the no max rule smaller.


I think the broad idea here is ok, and worth discussing. I don't really like the specific proposals though. Both are too strong I think, plus the 5% edge thing just seems like a pain to keep track of.

Think I'd prefer something like scully's "right to match" during auctions (but not after it closes). It might make auctions slightly more annoying, but has about the right level of power I think.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:54 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:
dcdoorknob wrote:But if I could pick for myself I'd be in favor of raising (not eliminating) max salary and then tweaking the TB rules.

You have no idea how many times we've been the tie-break rules trying to tweak them. It's a nightmare. %-6 Anything that really 'works' is insanely complicated.


It seems to me it gets to be a nightmare as more people make little complaints trying to "better" the system. As far as I can see things are working pretty well and each year people try to make this league like more like a fantasy auction set up which then causes more rules to be made to try to keep it somewhat similar to the NBA to counteract the other new rules being put in place. Confusing. :-S
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