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Max Salary Discussion

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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:59 pm

Perhaps an option to try to give the retaining team SOME advantage, would be to allow the person with bird rights (this goes for all bird right owners, thus giving it a purpose as well) to match during the bidding process. They don't have the same as a RFA who waits until it ends to match and doesn't need to bid, but they have to bid a 'match' bid during the 24h clock. This gives the current owner a slight advantage, which I think mimics the real NBA as most players I think if given the same price would choose the same team, but it also ultimately forces them to keep on bidding and have their intentions known during the bidding process.


This seems like a decent middle ground. I still don't love the idea of having no max salary, but at least this addresses some of the issues it creates. Unfortunently more rules though.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:04 pm

dasein wrote:
Da Ruhl wrote:We could ditch max salary and also somewhat strengthen bird rights - perhaps an owner with Bird rights only owes 95% of their bid (basically they get a 5% edge in the bidding war) or perhaps Bird rights and RFA are merged and both allow the current owner a "last look" to match without bidding.

To my mind, the combination of no max + stronger Bird rightswould be more fair on an ongoing basis, more interesting, make the ruleset simpler, and make the fairness issues around the no max rule smaller.


I think the broad idea here is ok, and worth discussing. I don't really like the specific proposals though. Both are too strong I think, plus the 5% edge thing just seems like a pain to keep track of.

Think I'd prefer something like scully's "right to match" during auctions (but not after it closes). It might make auctions slightly more annoying, but has about the right level of power I think.


Good discussion. I think I could be on board for something like 25M max salary with the ability for each team to designate a restricted free agent each season before the draft starts. I feel like matching during the bidding doesn't do much and it would need to be used in conjunction with a max bid. Otherwise if you're the manager constantly being matched, you just say to yourself, what's another .25M?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:16 pm

silentjim wrote: Good discussion. I think I could be on board for something like 25M max salary with the ability for each team to designate a restricted free agent each season before the draft starts. I feel like matching during the bidding doesn't do much and it would need to be used in conjunction with a max bid. Otherwise if you're the manager constantly being matched, you just say to yourself, what's another .25M?


Well, at the higher salaries, you'd need to be adding more than 0.25M but yes the potential to drag things out is there. If it's only the current team and one other manager bidding, you'd expect the auction to move half as slowly as a normal one. Not necessarily a deal breaker to my mind, but it could be annoying.

I don't think I like the idea of designating RFAs- just more rules, makes the FA process more confusing and it doesn't really address the issues that started this thread.

Also, LBJ and Durant would still be underpaid at 25M. Just saying. }:-)
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:33 pm

dasein wrote:
silentjim wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:I echo hi chi's sentiments. Look, yes, some players are worth more in a free market system. But this league was based off the real NBA and they have a max salary. Not really keen on turning this into more of a standard fantasy auction league.

As for people never leaving their teams, well how is that any different than a good team in the NBA holding onto their stars while bad teams/financially mismanaged ones could lose theirs to better teams.


agreed. Maybe an increase in max makes the most sense for all involved


Eh, I'm gonna disagree with DV here. Yes it was originally set up to mirror the NBA, and that almost led to the league's death because the rules were so convoluted that nobody could be bothered managing them. That's why we cut away a lot of the fat a couple of seasons ago. Dropping the max doesn't change anything more drastically than what we've already done. It also cuts away a whole layer of arbitrary in the form of the tie-breakers, which were always problematic.

And do I really need to list of all the ways this league is not like the NBA already? The reality is that we are a fantasy league. The thing that makes it non-standard is the fact that we have contracts at all, and that they last for multiple years. Having a max salary does not add much flavour.

And the way it's different to people never leaving their teams in the NBA DV, is that in real life the rules don't dictate that they do so. I'll also point out that rarely happens anymore. From this generation we'll have the Spurs guys, Kobe, probably Dirk, maybe Wade. That's about it.

Ok, end of rant. Like I said earlier. Increasing the max from 20 to 30 solves one problem, but we have the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by dropping the max entirely.


Dasein, 99% of the time I agree with you, but I disagree on the NBA. Dwight Howard left LA because the roster was old and decrepit. LeBron bailed on Cleveland because his 2nd best player in his 6 years was Zydrunas Ilguskas, and then Boobie Gibson. Deron Williams left Utah because well, Utah is not a great place for a young African American male. Melo left denver because he wanted a big market, And denver didn't win enough. Bosh left Toronto because they sucked as well.

They aren't leaving because of money, they all bailed because of poor teams, and a desire for more TV exposure, etc.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:37 pm

silentjim wrote:
dasein wrote:
Da Ruhl wrote:We could ditch max salary and also somewhat strengthen bird rights - perhaps an owner with Bird rights only owes 95% of their bid (basically they get a 5% edge in the bidding war) or perhaps Bird rights and RFA are merged and both allow the current owner a "last look" to match without bidding.

To my mind, the combination of no max + stronger Bird rightswould be more fair on an ongoing basis, more interesting, make the ruleset simpler, and make the fairness issues around the no max rule smaller.


I think the broad idea here is ok, and worth discussing. I don't really like the specific proposals though. Both are too strong I think, plus the 5% edge thing just seems like a pain to keep track of.

Think I'd prefer something like scully's "right to match" during auctions (but not after it closes). It might make auctions slightly more annoying, but has about the right level of power I think.


Good discussion. I think I could be on board for something like 25M max salary with the ability for each team to designate a restricted free agent each season before the draft starts. I feel like matching during the bidding doesn't do much and it would need to be used in conjunction with a max bid. Otherwise if you're the manager constantly being matched, you just say to yourself, what's another .25M?


I'm good with this as well. You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).

Another option is to go with a straight hard cap at number which will make it more challenging for owners of great players to build great teams. That way the odds are higher these guys get released to free agency every so often.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:38 pm

I'm good with this as well. You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


I agree with this as well.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby TheRobSays » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:57 pm

hi chi wrote:
I'm good with this as well. You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


I agree with this as well.


I have no issue with letting LeBron go as yes, I made a good signing. But I also had TD, Bosh, Mayo and many more guys to bridge the gap and finish at/near the top for the last two years. This is in no way only because of LBJ. I didn't sign other guys (i.e. Brook Lopez) to big deals like some of you and now my strategy is in jeopardy because of an arbitrary mid-stream rule change proposal. I will live with $25M but then people will still say this is not enough. I mean Carmelo went for $14M per season last year - is that enough? Is he worth half of LBJ? All contracts would need to be revaluated as Hi Chi says. If this is the course we take maybe we do need to wind up the league and redraft thereafter.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby TheRobSays » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:04 pm

scully19 wrote:Sorry been away, my chime in:

This rule obviously needs to go.
1. Those saying we need to mimic NBA, stars don't always stay in one place either and we basically have them locked in at that spot this way. Every single NBA player is up for grabs minus the top 5 say. The guys everyone wants no one new can get.
2. The tie-breaker system gets way too convoluted to use.
3. I appologize Rob, as I'm clearly outing you. I understand your position, obviously you want to keep your player and we get that, but saying it is unfair is bullocks. You had LeBron for 6 years. We can call the first year a wash because you had to overpay for him, that means you had the best fantasy player in the league for 5 years...at a DISCOUNTED rate. Do you really think it is unfair that someone else get a turn (possibly, since you can still bid). Really you might just have to pay 5 mill extra a year or something. This isn't exactly a ravaging here, but it allows all teams an equal shot at him. Seriously, you have LeBron for the next 2 years for sure at a discounted rate, you go straight through his prime on your team and there is nothing we can do about it. Don't you think it's about time you say 'That was fun, I got lucky and made the right move early to lock him in for 4 years and 20 mill, but it is a huge advantage.'

All this is in saying that I realized early, as I'm sure we all did, that max players don't leave the original team that signs them in this way, so I traded the farm for rookies, in the hopes that I can get one from the draft, which I seemed to think was the only way to get NEW max players, which make a team (quick look on Yahoo shows Durants team #1 in the league, and LeBrons finished #2). This isn't a revelation, and it seems like a balance of power is in order. This drastically changes my plans too since I remortgaged to go for new max players and don't really have all that competitive of a team (hoping for somewhere in the middle).

Perhaps an option to try to give the retaining team SOME advantage, would be to allow the person with bird rights (this goes for all bird right owners, thus giving it a purpose as well) to match during the bidding process. They don't have the same as a RFA who waits until it ends to match and doesn't need to bid, but they have to bid a 'match' bid during the 24h clock. This gives the current owner a slight advantage, which I think mimics the real NBA as most players I think if given the same price would choose the same team, but it also ultimately forces them to keep on bidding and have their intentions known during the bidding process.


There is no outing me, I am clearly stating my position and that I played by the rules from Day 1. Not only is LBJ my favorite player but I felt he was the best as well. Better than the other max guys - Kobe, D12, etc. Other guys chose to sign other players, fine by me. Some even signed two - not me. I am a planner and that was what I set out to do. Now to change is unfair - period. To be clear - this was not luck, it was a good plan, complimented by $5M for TD and $7M for Bosh. Good planning not reckless spending gets you a top team.

In a salary cap world with this few teams I don't know if you can actually justify spending even 30M on one player. Too many good ones available cheaper. Totally changes the league and the approach you have to take. Basically only if I has strong young guys on cheap contracts you can overpay for a superstar.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:46 pm

TheRobSays wrote:
scully19 wrote:Sorry been away, my chime in:

This rule obviously needs to go.
1. Those saying we need to mimic NBA, stars don't always stay in one place either and we basically have them locked in at that spot this way. Every single NBA player is up for grabs minus the top 5 say. The guys everyone wants no one new can get.
2. The tie-breaker system gets way too convoluted to use.
3. I appologize Rob, as I'm clearly outing you. I understand your position, obviously you want to keep your player and we get that, but saying it is unfair is bullocks. You had LeBron for 6 years. We can call the first year a wash because you had to overpay for him, that means you had the best fantasy player in the league for 5 years...at a DISCOUNTED rate. Do you really think it is unfair that someone else get a turn (possibly, since you can still bid). Really you might just have to pay 5 mill extra a year or something. This isn't exactly a ravaging here, but it allows all teams an equal shot at him. Seriously, you have LeBron for the next 2 years for sure at a discounted rate, you go straight through his prime on your team and there is nothing we can do about it. Don't you think it's about time you say 'That was fun, I got lucky and made the right move early to lock him in for 4 years and 20 mill, but it is a huge advantage.'

All this is in saying that I realized early, as I'm sure we all did, that max players don't leave the original team that signs them in this way, so I traded the farm for rookies, in the hopes that I can get one from the draft, which I seemed to think was the only way to get NEW max players, which make a team (quick look on Yahoo shows Durants team #1 in the league, and LeBrons finished #2). This isn't a revelation, and it seems like a balance of power is in order. This drastically changes my plans too since I remortgaged to go for new max players and don't really have all that competitive of a team (hoping for somewhere in the middle).

Perhaps an option to try to give the retaining team SOME advantage, would be to allow the person with bird rights (this goes for all bird right owners, thus giving it a purpose as well) to match during the bidding process. They don't have the same as a RFA who waits until it ends to match and doesn't need to bid, but they have to bid a 'match' bid during the 24h clock. This gives the current owner a slight advantage, which I think mimics the real NBA as most players I think if given the same price would choose the same team, but it also ultimately forces them to keep on bidding and have their intentions known during the bidding process.


There is no outing me, I am clearly stating my position and that I played by the rules from Day 1. Not only is LBJ my favorite player but I felt he was the best as well. Better than the other max guys - Kobe, D12, etc. Other guys chose to sign other players, fine by me. Some even signed two - not me. I am a planner and that was what I set out to do. Now to change is unfair - period. To be clear - this was not luck, it was a good plan, complimented by $5M for TD and $7M for Bosh. Good planning not reckless spending gets you a top team.

In a salary cap world with this few teams I don't know if you can actually justify spending even 30M on one player. Too many good ones available cheaper. Totally changes the league and the approach you have to take. Basically only if I has strong young guys on cheap contracts you can overpay for a superstar.


@Rob, would you be ok with implementing a max salary of 25M in a few years? Maybe after the next free agency of the superstars? Something that helps all sides?

We do have to keep in mind that things like removing the soft cap affected teams too, and other rules changes, and just because they hurt some teams in the short term doesn't make them bad. Making the rules, and then seeing how they function in real life sometimes brings to light huge mistakes or issues that we hadn't thought of, so I would guess the rules will always be a little fluid.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:52 pm

TheRobSays wrote:
scully19 wrote:Sorry been away, my chime in:

This rule obviously needs to go.
1. Those saying we need to mimic NBA, stars don't always stay in one place either and we basically have them locked in at that spot this way. Every single NBA player is up for grabs minus the top 5 say. The guys everyone wants no one new can get.
2. The tie-breaker system gets way too convoluted to use.
3. I appologize Rob, as I'm clearly outing you. I understand your position, obviously you want to keep your player and we get that, but saying it is unfair is bullocks. You had LeBron for 6 years. We can call the first year a wash because you had to overpay for him, that means you had the best fantasy player in the league for 5 years...at a DISCOUNTED rate. Do you really think it is unfair that someone else get a turn (possibly, since you can still bid). Really you might just have to pay 5 mill extra a year or something. This isn't exactly a ravaging here, but it allows all teams an equal shot at him. Seriously, you have LeBron for the next 2 years for sure at a discounted rate, you go straight through his prime on your team and there is nothing we can do about it. Don't you think it's about time you say 'That was fun, I got lucky and made the right move early to lock him in for 4 years and 20 mill, but it is a huge advantage.'

All this is in saying that I realized early, as I'm sure we all did, that max players don't leave the original team that signs them in this way, so I traded the farm for rookies, in the hopes that I can get one from the draft, which I seemed to think was the only way to get NEW max players, which make a team (quick look on Yahoo shows Durants team #1 in the league, and LeBrons finished #2). This isn't a revelation, and it seems like a balance of power is in order. This drastically changes my plans too since I remortgaged to go for new max players and don't really have all that competitive of a team (hoping for somewhere in the middle).

Perhaps an option to try to give the retaining team SOME advantage, would be to allow the person with bird rights (this goes for all bird right owners, thus giving it a purpose as well) to match during the bidding process. They don't have the same as a RFA who waits until it ends to match and doesn't need to bid, but they have to bid a 'match' bid during the 24h clock. This gives the current owner a slight advantage, which I think mimics the real NBA as most players I think if given the same price would choose the same team, but it also ultimately forces them to keep on bidding and have their intentions known during the bidding process.


There is no outing me, I am clearly stating my position and that I played by the rules from Day 1. Not only is LBJ my favorite player but I felt he was the best as well. Better than the other max guys - Kobe, D12, etc. Other guys chose to sign other players, fine by me. Some even signed two - not me. I am a planner and that was what I set out to do. Now to change is unfair - period. To be clear - this was not luck, it was a good plan, complimented by $5M for TD and $7M for Bosh. Good planning not reckless spending gets you a top team.

In a salary cap world with this few teams I don't know if you can actually justify spending even 30M on one player. Too many good ones available cheaper. Totally changes the league and the approach you have to take. Basically only if I has strong young guys on cheap contracts you can overpay for a superstar.


Basically to hammer Rob's point home. He's the Spurs of the league. He has his Duncan(LeBron in our league), and then wisely spent to build a strong core around them. Punishing him for being a well run team is silly. There are always going to be have's and have not's in any league. Not everyone can win. I personally think the solution is to lower the hard cap significantly. Then increase minimum salaries going forward to at least 1M, and watch how much harder it is to keep everyone forever. Force owners to have tighter budgets, and guess what, more big ticket free agents will be in play, even with a max salary. Then eliminate bird rights, and just use the tiebreaker system to see which team gives the guy a better chance of winning.
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