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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:13 pm

TheRobSays wrote:I guess we can agree to disagree then.

Based on our showing this year in the baseball league perhaps we should just ask Thrill instead as he is clearly WAY smarter than the two of us combined?

Being snarky isn't going to help anyone. :-b I know exactly why I was middle of the pack last year btw. I had great high end talent, but no depth at all, due to a combination of injury and poor performance. Depth matters in this league. ;-D
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:14 pm

TheRobSays wrote:I guess we can agree to disagree then.

Based on our showing this year in the baseball league perhaps we should just ask Thrill instead as he is clearly WAY smarter than the two of us combined?


Hahaha. :-D For like a week I thought I could make some moves and catch him.... I'm a fool as well....

I agree with the snapshot of time thinking on free agents. Almost every player you can look at and say, he's highly overpaid, or someone got a deal on him. Few and far between that the values coincide with salary perfectly, and it's because we're basically playing the stock market. It's volatile.

Rob, going back to your point, would I rather have Carmelo, Griffin, and Gasol at 32M combined, or Lebron at 32M? Really there isn't a correct answer. And in this hypothetical I think we'd get a split on who would want what side. If I could have Lebron at 32M, Jimmy Butler at .25M, and Eric Bledsoe at .25M, then that's who I'm taking. In addition, if you think 32M is too much for Lebron and eats too much of your cap, aren't you glad that someone else just made every other player more affordable to you?

Other than getting a good deal on a player I want, making someone else pay more than I want for a player or have budgeted, is the second best feeling.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:12 am

Oh man! Where to start?

DVauthrin wrote: Dasein, 99% of the time I agree with you, but I disagree on the NBA. Dwight Howard left LA because the roster was old and decrepit. LeBron bailed on Cleveland because his 2nd best player in his 6 years was Zydrunas Ilguskas, and then Boobie Gibson. Deron Williams left Utah because well, Utah is not a great place for a young African American male. Melo left denver because he wanted a big market, And denver didn't win enough. Bosh left Toronto because they sucked as well.

They aren't leaving because of money, they all bailed because of poor teams, and a desire for more TV exposure, etc.


DV, all you've done here is beat up on a strawman. What I said was players staying with 1 team for their whole career is rare. I never even implied that players make decisions purely driven by money. Of course they want big markets and bright lights and sunny beaches. This stuff is relevant in reality but irrelevant in fantasy. None of us signed up to be Minnesota or Charlotte.

DVauthrin wrote:I'm good with this as well. You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


WHY?
I don't understand this one. Not. At. All.
Increasing the max affects precisely 2 players (currently) and they are both locked in for another two years, giving their owners ample time to prepare. Every other player in the league is currently priced in the appropriate range. Any strategy at work now would work just the same without a max. The effect of removing the max wouldn't even be noticed for 2 years when LBJ and Durant come on line.

Then you suggest lowering the cap- a move that would significantly do over everyone. I don't get it :-?

TheRobSays wrote: In a salary cap world with this few teams I don't know if you can actually justify spending even 30M on one player. Too many good ones available cheaper. Totally changes the league and the approach you have to take. Basically only if I has strong young guys on cheap contracts you can overpay for a superstar.


It is what it is man. Player value comes directly from their stats (no intangibles in fantasy). The stats are 100% quantifiable, and easily consolidated into a single number (price) using high school level stats. It's all just maths. With our league settings, Durant was worth $29 last year. That's a fact, not a philosophical question. The only change this makes to the way a manager approaches the league is that you have to show the green to get a top dog, rather than rely on some arbitrary set of rules to bail you out.

BTW, increasing the Max to 30M makes it likely that you now have to slightly overpay to have Lebron. No-Max is the fairest, cleanest and easiest method by a long way. It boggles my mind that so many of you are having trouble seeing it. :-?

Fenris-77 wrote:
DVauthrin wrote: Then eliminate bird rights, and just use the tiebreaker system to see which team gives the guy a better chance of winning.


This is problematic too since the tie-break system as it stands is a wonky piece of shizz.


Agree, and it actually doesn't matter what tie-breaker system we come up with. No matter how we word it, it's going to be Big Government deciding either that the rich get richer, or that we're going to redistribute the wealth. I was heavily involved in coming up with the current method and I still don't like it- and the problem is the fact we're using a made up set of rules in the first place, not the rules themselves. I think this is an area we just need to suck it up and admit that we're a fantasy league and cannot simulate FA decisions in any meaningful way. Even if we could, the result wouldn't be fair to everyone. Again, we can't all have Hollywood or South Beach in a tie break system.

The fairest way by far is no max auction. I don't know how I can emphasise this any more. :-°
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:27 am

Sorry fellas! For some reason, I wasn't getting notifications on this thread, even though I posted early on.

Wow...

Honestly, now that I've read through everything, I've adjusted my stance...I'm now all for "no max" as well.

Basically, I understand how we all want to try and keep players beyond their current contracts. But I too, would like to know there's a chance I could own LBJ/Durant/"the next big thing" one of these days. And as history should show, you all KNOW I'm not a big fan of ANY tie-breaking system that puts a struggling team with cap space to spend at a disadvantage. Even if it was ME wanting to keep LBJ or Durant, it's just not right if someone can have the chance to hold onto a top three guy for six, seven, or even 8 years, simply because the have "Bird's rights" or tie-breaker points or whatever.

No offense to the LBJ and Durant owners, but my take is if the market dictates that player goes with another team because they can pay X amount of dollars more, then so be it. :-]
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:32 am

So-Tex wrote:Sorry fellas! For some reason, I wasn't getting notifications on this thread, even though I posted early on.

Wow...

Honestly, now that I've read through everything, I've adjusted my stance...I'm now all for "no max" as well.

Basically, I understand how we all want to try and keep players beyond their current contracts. But I too, would like to know there's a chance I could own LBJ/Durant/"the next big thing" one of these days. And as history should show, you all KNOW I'm not a big fan of ANY tie-breaking system that puts a struggling team with cap space to spend at a disadvantage. Even if it was ME wanting to keep LBJ or Durant, it's just not right if someone can have the chance to hold onto a top three guy for six, seven, or even 8 years, simply because the have "Bird's rights" or tie-breaker points or whatever.

No offense to the LBJ and Durant owners, but my take is if the market dictates that player goes with another team because they can pay X amount of dollars more, then so be it. :-]


I agree - let the market bear what their true value is. 20M is not enough of a max.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:14 am

I've been over pretty every version of a tie-break system that might even possibly work, and none of them are good enough to be the mechanism that decides where a player goes IMO. It would be different if those mods were just small bumps to the actual salary number (pretend bumps, used only for comparative purposes) but our auction format doesn't support that kind of resolution.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:16 pm

I think we need to define that this league is a salary cap league and not an auction league. And while I'm of the opinion that max contracts should probably be increased, I do think they should be capped. Right now, the average salary for the top 10 players in the real NBA is 21.8M, but that's based on a 58.7M salary cap going into this season. If you do the math, that means are max contracts should be on average 27.6M or somewhere around there.

I'm of the belief that we should implement a higher max contract, with some newer tie breaking qualifiers that we all agree on, and look to implement the rule change in a few seasons. I think it's a fair compromise to all involved and maintains the mindset and integrity of this league that was established many years ago.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:37 pm

silentjim wrote: .... with some newer tie breaking qualifiers that we all agree on


You are one optimistic mofo Jim. :-D

When have we all agreed on anything?

Also, it's the use of tie breakers per se that I have a problem with. Any system will be picking winners to some extent, and that's what I can't endorse.

It does feel like we're taking round in circles a bit though. We probably should just put it to a vote at some stage, but I think before we can do that the alternatives need to be clear. The vote is obviously going to be something like No Max vs Increased Max + tie breaker of some sort. Clearly I'm behind No Max and there's really nothing more to describe there. I'd say it's up to the Increased Max crowd to put forth their proposal for the alternative.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:44 pm

I at one point mentioned no max with the ability for managers to declare one free agent per off season as a restricted free agent. How does that seem as an alternative. In Rob's case he would declare Lebron his RFA and not bid and either have the option to match said bid or simply say, "I could spend that money better else where". We'd probably have to have the RFA bidding take place first (the first nominated group) to make sure cap holds weren't causing a problem.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby scully19 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:00 pm

Declaring 1 person a RFA defeats the whole purpose of actually being able to sign one of the best players in the league since they will all be RFA now.
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