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Max Salary Discussion

Moderators: RedHopeful, silentjim, Fenris-77, DVauthrin, dasein

Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:01 pm

dasein wrote:Oh man! Where to start?

DVauthrin wrote: Dasein, 99% of the time I agree with you, but I disagree on the NBA. Dwight Howard left LA because the roster was old and decrepit. LeBron bailed on Cleveland because his 2nd best player in his 6 years was Zydrunas Ilguskas, and then Boobie Gibson. Deron Williams left Utah because well, Utah is not a great place for a young African American male. Melo left denver because he wanted a big market, And denver didn't win enough. Bosh left Toronto because they sucked as well.

They aren't leaving because of money, they all bailed because of poor teams, and a desire for more TV exposure, etc.

dasein wrote:DV, all you've done here is beat up on a strawman. What I said was players staying with 1 team for their whole career is rare. I never even implied that players make decisions purely driven by money. Of course they want big markets and bright lights and sunny beaches. This stuff is relevant in reality but irrelevant in fantasy. None of us signed up to be Minnesota or Charlotte.


No kidding, none of us want to be minnesota or charlotte, but guess what, there will be good fantasy teams and bad in any league. Period. The cream rises to the top, and some teams will fall to the bottom. I don't want to relegate people there, but it's up to them to build good teams.

DVauthrin wrote:I'm good with this as well. You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


dasein wrote:WHY?
I don't understand this one. Not. At. All.
Increasing the max affects precisely 2 players (currently) and they are both locked in for another two years, giving their owners ample time to prepare. Every other player in the league is currently priced in the appropriate range. Any strategy at work now would work just the same without a max. The effect of removing the max wouldn't even be noticed for 2 years when LBJ and Durant come on line.


See, I think owners would be willing to spend extra to get Curry, CP3, Harden, etc. top 5-10 players are worth their weight in gold. it's easy to sign cheap guys to be solid role players on a roster. I don't think this just affects LeBron and Durant.


dasein wrote: Then you suggest lowering the cap- a move that would significantly do over everyone. I don't get it :-?


I'd rather have a rule change applied to all of us, and not just a small percentage. Also, I believe the hard cap is way too high right now. It would even the balance of power and reduce the odds max players could stay with one team in our league for extended periods.

The fairest way by far is no max auction. I don't know how I can emphasise this any more. :-°


And then this starts the process of turning our league into a run of the mill auction league. Which I don't want. This is my favorite league because it is unique from any other league out there. Does that mean rules are more complex, odd, etc? Yes, but that's what we all signed up for. I don't want to make this just a standard fantasy auction league.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby scully19 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:03 pm

2 players make more than 20 mill makes this a run of the mill auction league? We still have drafts, multi year contracts, RFA, bird rights, but because of 2 players we are now an auction league?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:09 pm

scully19 wrote:2 players make more than 20 mill makes this a run of the mill auction league? We still have drafts, multi year contracts, RFA, bird rights, but because of 2 players we are now an auction league?


Again, I think if people could go to 25M etc on Harden, Curry, CP3, they would. Having a top 10 player to build around is huge. And it's not hard to find bargains to fill out your roster, especially if you are smart and let others blow their FA money before you.

And what's also bothering is me is that the no max people are getting a bit testy when those that aren't in favor bring up a dissenting viewpoint. Discussion is good, but we don't need to get upset when people disagree. If we put this to a league vote, and no max wins, I'll survive and be just fine, for what it's worth.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:52 pm

Ok, another idea, which may or may not gain any traction with anyone else, idk.

I think the system for determining star players is needlessly complex. Instead of doing value rankings for every player with each one of the 9 cats ommitted, and seeing which one of those 9 is highest for each player, you could just let each individual team designate 1 (or 0) punt categories to be used when determining their own star players.

So the Dwight team designates ft% as it's punt category, and they still get to count Dwight as that star player worth 2 points. Of course this also means that another player on that team doesn't meet the star player threshold under punt ft% (even if they do w/o punt ft%), that player just doesn't count as a star player for that team. I'm fine with this since that is actually what is happening with the fantasy value of that player for that team, assuming ft% is indeed being punted.

Then when everyone designates the punt cat (or no cats punted should also be an option), then calculating the 2 levels of star players for each team would be pretty simple and the whole league could be done in like an hour I bet.

And from there I think the TB system becomes about 90% less work to administrate and it also makes more sense to me to do it that way, personally. All this is assuming there is still need for a TB system once we decide on the no or higher max thing obviously.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:54 pm

What this really boils down to is whether or not, as a league, we want competitive bidding on the best players or not. Upping the max is a middle ground approach, and is certainly fairer than what we have, but doesn't change the fact that guys can mostly keep their own FAs if they want to pay.

Keep in mind folks that when you add that tie-breaker in you're opening up the door to using it on any player, not just the max guys, which would allow teams (or should allow teams) with an advantage in the tie break to just match salaries rather than have to up them. That's a fairly major change from the mechanics we use now. I'm not actually against it either, I brought it up to emphasize how robust that rule will need to be.

I do think that using BBM ranks is probably the best base foundation for a tie break system, but maybe we need to change the mechanics and account for more things. For example, the current system doesn't account for previous season success, and it could. It also might be more appropriate to adjust the star system to account for an average of previous seasons, but I'm hesitant to really push the idea because of the amount of work involved (and the star system is already a lot of work for dasein). On that topic we should also figure out how to make it a group project rather than a one man show. B-)

I also think that it might be more manageable if the tie break stuff were managed on a google doc that could be updated and whatnot and if it were a one number thing rather than a series of tie-breaks. Obviously that would change from example to example based on the FA target in question, but it sounds more streamlined to me.

On a related note, it occurred to me that we could also play around with floor salaries for FAs on that star list, especially if the system is going to get used more often.

@DC - I wonder if cat designations for individual teams would end up being little too abuse friendly. I'd actually be ok going with straight BBM rnaks rather than the punt format we have now.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:58 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:@DC - I wonder if cat designations for individual teams would end up being little too abuse friendly. I'd actually be ok going with straight BBM rnaks rather than the punt format we have now.


I think you've got to let the Dwight owner (as the most obvious example) count him as a star player, as in a h2h league with punt ft% as an option, he obviously is. Allowing one designated punt cat per team for determining star players makes the most sense to me as a way to do that while still being MUCH simpler to actually carry out than the current system.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby Fenris-77 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:10 pm

dcdoorknob wrote:I think you've got to let the Dwight owner (as the most obvious example) count him as a star player, as in a h2h league with punt ft% as an option, he obviously is. Allowing one designated punt cat per team for determining star players makes the most sense to me as a way to do that while still being MUCH simpler to actually carry out than the current system.

I don't think you understand just how much that changes the BBM rankings. Dwight is the third ranked player if you're punting FT%, which is a huge swing. I can see a lot of room for people to game that rule. I do agree that Dwight should count though, so something needs to account for it.

Average BBM value over more than one season would help fix that of course, plus it would eliminate a lot of static from small sample size issues for guys coming off seasons shortened by injury. Hmm... :-?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:58 pm

DVauthrin wrote:
scully19 wrote:2 players make more than 20 mill makes this a run of the mill auction league? We still have drafts, multi year contracts, RFA, bird rights, but because of 2 players we are now an auction league?


Again, I think if people could go to 25M etc on Harden, Curry, CP3, they would. Having a top 10 player to build around is huge. And it's not hard to find bargains to fill out your roster, especially if you are smart and let others blow their FA money before you.

And what's also bothering is me is that the no max people are getting a bit testy when those that aren't in favor bring up a dissenting viewpoint. Discussion is good, but we don't need to get upset when people disagree. If we put this to a league vote, and no max wins, I'll survive and be just fine, for what it's worth.


I agree that more players might go for 20+ if we increase or have no limit on the cap. I'd consider it myself so I'm sure others will as well.

For the record if we're going to toss out dollar values based on BBM ranks, keep in mind this is a 16 team 16 player league, which makes the values different than standard cat.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dcdoorknob » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:44 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:I don't think you understand just how much that changes the BBM rankings.


I understand it perfectly fine.

What I don't understand is why you think that's a problem. Currently, as I understand it, dasein (or whoever) has to look at 9 categories as punted categories individually for each and every player. All I am suggesting is to only look at 1 punted cat for each player (instead of all 9 individually), and let which one that is be designated by the team owners for their own players. It isn't doing anything that isn't already being done, it is just taking away 8/9ths of the work since I don't think that 8/9ths of the work is even beneficial or necessary.

I would be fine with maybe looking at 2 year values instead of single season ones (would make sense for Love as an example..). BBM does that now too pretty easily.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby capoltorta » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:14 pm

This league is getting hella confusing. For the record I am good with whatever you guys decide so count me as impartial, but please let me know what the final decisions are, thanks.
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