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Max Salary Discussion

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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:16 am

What is the argument against no max contracts? Could someone sum it up succinctly?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:47 am

DVauthrin wrote:
No kidding, none of us want to be minnesota or charlotte, but guess what, there will be good fantasy teams and bad in any league. Period. The cream rises to the top, and some teams will fall to the bottom. I don't want to relegate people there, but it's up to them to build good teams.


I was using Min and Cha as examples of team's who's geographic location and population put them at a comparitive disadvantage with FAs, not as examples of bottom feeders. Nevermind, this part was all getting off topic anyway.

DVauthrin wrote:You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


dasein wrote:WHY?
I don't understand this one. Not. At. All.
Increasing the max affects precisely 2 players (currently) and they are both locked in for another two years, giving their owners ample time to prepare. Every other player in the league is currently priced in the appropriate range. Any strategy at work now would work just the same without a max. The effect of removing the max wouldn't even be noticed for 2 years when LBJ and Durant come on line.


DVauthrin wrote:See, I think owners would be willing to spend extra to get Curry, CP3, Harden, etc. top 5-10 players are worth their weight in gold. it's easy to sign cheap guys to be solid role players on a roster. I don't think this just affects LeBron and Durant.


What I was asking was why do you think a redraft would be needed?
When I said precisely two players will be affected, I meant only these 2 would likely be near the max if it were increased and see their price go up significantly (near 50%). Yes Harden, Curry et.al might get a few million extra. I wasn't thinking of that as being significant.

DVauthrin wrote:I'd rather have a rule change applied to all of us, and not just a small percentage. Also, I believe the hard cap is way too high right now. It would even the balance of power and reduce the odds max players could stay with one team in our league for extended periods.


I agree that a rule should apply to all, which is what no max would do - everyone has the same opportunity to win any available player. I'd argue that the current rules are relevant only to a small percentage of managers; those that have a (genuine) max player on their roster.

And FWIW, all that changing the cap does is scale back the prices. LeDurant would still be worth 40% of the cap. All that changes is the dollar value of that 40%. This achieves nothing long term and causes a giant mess short term (everyone would be overpaid)

DVauthrin wrote:
dasein wrote: The fairest way by far is no max auction. I don't know how I can emphasise this any more. :-°

And then this starts the process of turning our league into a run of the mill auction league. Which I don't want. This is my favorite league because it is unique from any other league out there. Does that mean rules are more complex, odd, etc? Yes, but that's what we all signed up for. I don't want to make this just a standard fantasy auction league.


We might have to agree to disagree that a max salary and tie-breakers are central components of this league. I see the unique, flavour-enhancing components as follows:
1. multi-year contracts that can change in value over time
2. rookie draft with std rookie scale contracts
3. unique and multiple options for dropping players, including TOs, partially guaranteed years, etc

Even having an auction isn't really essential, but it suits us (excl Fenris :-D ). I fully agree with SoTex when he said that playing in a redraft auction league is nothing like this one, regardless of the max salary situation.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:48 am

RocketsDWM wrote:What is the argument against no max contracts? Could someone sum it up succinctly?


Great question! ;-D
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby So-Tex » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:52 am

RocketsDWM wrote:What is the argument against no max contracts? Could someone sum it up succinctly?

I'd like to hear that one too...because the more and more I think about it, the more convinced I am that "no-max" will settle several, if not ALL, of these issues.

Regarding DC's last comment, I wouldn't think anyone is advocating that the worse teams get the best players by default, when they come available. I had this same issue with the league when I first joined. Only difference was, it was with how you finished in the regular season standings that dictated which rookie spot you got in the draft (there actually was a "process", which I won't go into detail here, even if I could remember it completely). They instilled the idea that "success mattered" in order to keep managers from just tanking the last part of the season in order to try and get the #1 draft pick (or top picks). But it put the really bad teams at a disadvantage, because even if they stayed active to the very last day, and TRIED to win a game, a week, several weeks, they still had no chance to get better through the rookie draft, because those who were able to finish higher were rewarded with the chance to get the top picks. And if you think the answer was as simple as "well, can't you just make some trades to make your team better?", I'd like to see YOU try to trade Jose Calderon on an 18M dollar contract! }:-) But like I said, we fixed most of that over the years. And even though we still have a few "bad" contracts floating around out there, the majority of them are starting to balance out, making it easier for the newer managers to put their own stamps on their builds.

Getting back to DC's comment though, I think going to a "no-max" solution would eliminate your concern for ANYONE, good or bad, having an advantage to signing LeDurant. Again, let the market dictate what these guys are worth...if a bad team with deep pockets can outbid for him, so be it. If a GREAT team with just enough cap space can outbid for him, then so be it. If a FANBOY really wants to get a hold of the either of those guys, and they gut their teams and overpay just to do so, THEN SO BE IT! And let them live with their mistake(s) if that really is the case.

Otherwise, we're all smart enough (I would think) to realize when to turn off the tap, and let something go.

EDIT*: Sorry, I thought I was still in the "SCL Rules" thread when I wrote that last part... :*) Still makes sense to me though. ;-)
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:48 pm

And then this starts the process of turning our league into a run of the mill auction league. Which I don't want. This is my favorite league because it is unique from any other league out there. Does that mean rules are more complex, odd, etc? Yes, but that's what we all signed up for. I don't want to make this just a standard fantasy auction league.


I agree
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby hi chi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:43 pm

My issues with no max salary are pretty simple. First, I view no max as one more step away from the NBA model in which this league was supposed to do its best to follow. I know that we can't model it perfectly. I know that we have moved away from it over the years (slippery slope). But at the end of the day we should do our best to model it when possible. By having no max salary we are stepping more towards an auction league with lots of rules and less like the NBA. I don't like that. I don't see having a max salary as a real big issue. Lebron turns 29 this December. In two years, when he is a FA again he will be turning 31. Do I want him for 20, 25 or 30 over 4 years after that? No. I don't care if the person who has Lebron holds him forever. Good for them (same for Durant). This is a long term league. Great players come and great players go. Teams get good and teams get bad. That is the point of this league, to work like the NBA, which means building, winning, then do a reshuffle or rebuild and try to win again. My team sucked since I have been in the league, I have worked on rebuilding. I hate losing, but this league isn't about one or two years. It's about long term. To rebuild I can build my team around one or two good young players and know they are my center pieces because of the max salary and the tie break. It is good for crappy teams like mine (was?) because I can plan on a rebuild and now it should work out. I think no max salary actually hurts bottom end teams and favors top and mid level teams. I don't like that.

My next issue with the max salary, I alluded to above. I think it could hurt the bottom teams. I can use my team as an example. I have had to suffer with a crap team for 3 years. Finally I can build my team and build category strength (due to the changes in draft order So-Tex mentioned). I have drafted with that in mind the past two years. I know/knew how much my rookies would cost me for 3 years and worst case what they would cost me using RFA for 4 years after that (in short I could do a worst case budget for 7 years just like an NBA team can do). With no max salary that could be blown up (assuming a player turns into a stud...thinking of Anthony Davis...maybe). I could still match whatever bid was made for him after his rookie deal due to the RFA, but a planned rebuild gets killed if the bidding goes off the rails due to no max. In short I think that no max makes it harded for bottom teams to rebuild around the players they draft (like the NBA). Yes, I could still hold a player for 7 years, but it is impossible to plan for the end of the rebuid with no max in place.

I don't like a no max salary because it is less like the NBA and I don't think it is necessary to put it in place. I also think no max benefits top level and mid level teams while hindering rebuilding teams. When we changed the draft method a few years ago, it helped bottom teams trying to rebuil. I think the no max discourages rebuilding through the draft and will encourage bottom teams to make desperate overpayments for players in order to dig out instead of a sensible rebuild. I think long term that will hurt the league.

That's my 2 cents.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby DVauthrin » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:18 pm

dasein wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
No kidding, none of us want to be minnesota or charlotte, but guess what, there will be good fantasy teams and bad in any league. Period. The cream rises to the top, and some teams will fall to the bottom. I don't want to relegate people there, but it's up to them to build good teams.


I was using Min and Cha as examples of team's who's geographic location and population put them at a comparitive disadvantage with FAs, not as examples of bottom feeders. Nevermind, this part was all getting off topic anyway.

DVauthrin wrote:You just will not get me on board with no max salary. If that's the direction we end up going, we basically have to redraft teams because it's going to kill a lot of owners and their strategies(not just lebron and durant).


dasein wrote:WHY?
I don't understand this one. Not. At. All.
Increasing the max affects precisely 2 players (currently) and they are both locked in for another two years, giving their owners ample time to prepare. Every other player in the league is currently priced in the appropriate range. Any strategy at work now would work just the same without a max. The effect of removing the max wouldn't even be noticed for 2 years when LBJ and Durant come on line.


DVauthrin wrote:See, I think owners would be willing to spend extra to get Curry, CP3, Harden, etc. top 5-10 players are worth their weight in gold. it's easy to sign cheap guys to be solid role players on a roster. I don't think this just affects LeBron and Durant.


What I was asking was why do you think a redraft would be needed?
When I said precisely two players will be affected, I meant only these 2 would likely be near the max if it were increased and see their price go up significantly (near 50%). Yes Harden, Curry et.al might get a few million extra. I wasn't thinking of that as being significant.

DVauthrin wrote:I'd rather have a rule change applied to all of us, and not just a small percentage. Also, I believe the hard cap is way too high right now. It would even the balance of power and reduce the odds max players could stay with one team in our league for extended periods.


I agree that a rule should apply to all, which is what no max would do - everyone has the same opportunity to win any available player. I'd argue that the current rules are relevant only to a small percentage of managers; those that have a (genuine) max player on their roster.

And FWIW, all that changing the cap does is scale back the prices. LeDurant would still be worth 40% of the cap. All that changes is the dollar value of that 40%. This achieves nothing long term and causes a giant mess short term (everyone would be overpaid)

DVauthrin wrote:
dasein wrote: The fairest way by far is no max auction. I don't know how I can emphasise this any more. :-°

And then this starts the process of turning our league into a run of the mill auction league. Which I don't want. This is my favorite league because it is unique from any other league out there. Does that mean rules are more complex, odd, etc? Yes, but that's what we all signed up for. I don't want to make this just a standard fantasy auction league.


We might have to agree to disagree that a max salary and tie-breakers are central components of this league. I see the unique, flavour-enhancing components as follows:
1. multi-year contracts that can change in value over time
2. rookie draft with std rookie scale contracts
3. unique and multiple options for dropping players, including TOs, partially guaranteed years, etc

Even having an auction isn't really essential, but it suits us (excl Fenris :-D ). I fully agree with SoTex when he said that playing in a redraft auction league is nothing like this one, regardless of the max salary situation.


1) I suppose after thinking about it, a redraft would not be needed because owners with max stars have at least a year to budget appropriately.

2) I don't agree that everyone doesn't have chances to win the best players. If a rebuilding team gets their stuff together and builds a good team, better than the one lebron is sitting on now, they can win him in our current setup. For example, when I won Curry, I would've won him in a tiebreaker too, and I was a bad team at the time.

3) Again, I think you better be real careful to not lose the identity of this league. I'm engaged to be married in June and will cut back on my leagues, but this is the league I'll never drop. Moving this to an auction style salaries is one thing, but it goes NO further than this if that is what is decided. And honestly, there is a fair compromise. Just up max salaries for 4 year deals to 40M. That way people can have a fairer shot at the Durant's of the world(though 15 guys won't win him) and yet retains an aspect of the league that makes it unique.
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby dasein » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:56 pm

DVauthrin wrote:
1) I suppose after thinking about it, a redraft would not be needed because owners with max stars have at least a year to budget appropriately.

2) I don't agree that everyone doesn't have chances to win the best players. If a rebuilding team gets their stuff together and builds a good team, better than the one lebron is sitting on now, they can win him in our current setup. For example, when I won Curry, I would've won him in a tiebreaker too, and I was a bad team at the time.

3) Again, I think you better be real careful to not lose the identity of this league. I'm engaged to be married in June and will cut back on my leagues, but this is the league I'll never drop. Moving this to an auction style salaries is one thing, but it goes NO further than this if that is what is decided. And honestly, there is a fair compromise. Just up max salaries for 4 year deals to 40M. That way people can have a fairer shot at the Durant's of the world(though 15 guys won't win him) and yet retains an aspect of the league that makes it unique.


1. ;-D

2. Yeah, I know you won Curry via tie-breaker without bird rights, but that's the only time it's happened and I don't remember the details but it would have required something of a perfect storm. This from the appendix in the rules:

"Note that the team holding bird rights would always win TB2, as long as it doesn’t have another star player at the FA’s position."

In other words, as long as the manager with bird rights understands that he can't own another star stuck at the same position as the FA, he will keep that FA. Tie breaker 2 guarantees that a manager can keep any max FA he wants.

3. I'd be fine with 4 yrs at 40M as the max. Of course that would effectively be a no max because nobody will ever be worth 40M. Durant's historic 2012/13 season didn't quite crack 30M. And I honestly believe that the identity of the league will not be effected by this. Changing the flavour has never been a goal, I just want to make it fairer foremost, and simpler as a bonus.

And congrats on your marriage and good luck with the wedding day. Try and enjoy it because it will be a blur. ;-D
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby silentjim » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:31 pm

dasein wrote:3. I'd be fine with 4 yrs at 40M as the max. Of course that would effectively be a no max because nobody will ever be worth 40M. Durant's historic 2012/13 season didn't quite crack 30M. And I honestly believe that the identity of the league will not be effected by this. Changing the flavour has never been a goal, I just want to make it fairer foremost, and simpler as a bonus.


Just because nobody will be worth 40M doesn't mean someone won't pay that. :-D

Question: Is having a max salary to protect us from ourselves? From making bad decisions?
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Re: Max Salary Discussion

Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:13 pm

silentjim wrote:
dasein wrote:3. I'd be fine with 4 yrs at 40M as the max. Of course that would effectively be a no max because nobody will ever be worth 40M. Durant's historic 2012/13 season didn't quite crack 30M. And I honestly believe that the identity of the league will not be effected by this. Changing the flavour has never been a goal, I just want to make it fairer foremost, and simpler as a bonus.


Just because nobody will be worth 40M doesn't mean someone won't pay that. :-D

Question: Is having a max salary to protect us from ourselves? From making bad decisions?


Certainly why the NBA has him or Kahn would have been out of job sooner.
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